To the Presonus preams: To belive a bunch of forums posts, they experienced some noise on very low input. Yamaha didn't have that problem. Why? They simply didn't allow the same gain. The Yamaha or Midas preamps still sound better but if you're picking up a guitar amp etc, their noise will still be far above the presonus preamps. Aside from that, you can build your own mic preamps with 5-10 parts if you're not satisfied with the built-in ones. Line levels are not an issue anyway. I don't gain anything if you buy either of them but to plan a mix of analog and digital can't be the right choice. Either go fully analog and just use a digital interface to record it or go fully digital. Mix a bunch of boxes, analog and digital, is asking for trouble.
This can be a MG12XU feeding an MX-1 for the live performer/producer. As I said, analog truly starts at the MG12XU, anything below is too cut down and above just gets better. The MX-1 is apt due to being a MIDI hub/multichannel USB interface/control surface designed to bring synths together, and is basically a very advanced representation of an internal mixer inside a multi engined synth. It contains a sequencer that can be programmed TR drum style to run the attached synths as well as apply a lot of the controls right from the mixer. The sequencer also does step level multi effects programming per input channel. Every Roland effect is there per channel and in any chain. None of the other digital mixers can offer this level of MIDI support and control when bringing synths together. Both are mature products with no issues reported and well updated and supported
There are a number of the other digital units and mixers with multichannel interfaces mentioned in this thread floating out there, either totally bricked or with bricked digital sections. I have receipts supporting the return of a Soundcraft after one day at our local music shop and exchange/upgrade to a larger unit in the form of the MG12XU. I did not find the mic preamp and the main outs acceptable. The preamp sounded dead and outs just didn't output the attack that I was placing into the bass strings or the mic with my voice
You can do better. for a studio only type of setting, some DIY tube pres feeding a VT-4 or two as the main vocal mics on the USB channels of the MX-1. None of the analog or digital options would offer anywhere close to the scope of options that opens up this way. An example would be, let's say I want an echo on what I vocalise on every 3rd beat but fireworks of echos and delays only on the 3rd beat of the last bar. I can select the VT-4 channel on the MX-1 and set those effects on the step sequencer across the top of the unit. The same goes for every synth or any other instrument attached. Then, using the MX-1 slicer and things, I can go nuts while live. The step sequencer can be played/edited while live. There is no chance of a Presonus or DM3 supporting a synth/EDM/Dub setup in this manner
But a Presonus/DM3/V-mixer will mix a small ensemble of performers very well. My preferred option is more for those very vain one army producer/DJ who often hosts guest live performers and jammers 😀
Actually, it's not. Every in/out, FX, AUX, except the USB and MIDI is analog and is every time it passes in/out it is converted A/D and D/A. Except for a gig that can't be satisfying, that's so much worse than noisy mic preamps. The USB can only use AIRA devices. The master EQ only got presets and the master limiter doesn't prevent distortion - which makes it useless.
I know I suggested the MX-1 too but as a minimalistic solution but to combine it with another minimalistic mixer and box isn't better, easier or giving any better sound quality. I also don't like the changing functionality of the knobs (okay, that's probably just me) but iit really bothers me that these three devices will cost more than the Presonus new. The fact that you have to deal with the EQ on the MX-1 and the Yamaha at the same time doesn't strike me as very practical either nor the fact it only got unbalanced inputs.
It might be I'm overlooking something which is important for musicians but the need (and space) for two mixers which are both limited and at the same time more expensive than one single one which can do a lot more makes me wonder what it is I'm not understanding. Maybe I am confused and wrong and I am sorry for that, I just can't see a single advantage of that.
Ofc there are freezing digital mixers. To have a MX-1 does not prevent it from happening, its core is digital too after all.
The VT-4 is an AIRA device for vocals. It has a high quality mic pre and can take line level. Contains more vocal effects then regular analog or digital mixers. A high quality tube pre can be used via the line in
I replace the VT-4 with a JDXI for the same mic input via AIRA link USB and more effects such as driving one of the synth engines with autonote feature exclusive to the JDXI
All digital mixers will have analog to digital conversions and vice versa at all the analog inputs/auxes/sends and receives/ effects outs and ins/ master record outs and headphone outs and such
Updates through the unit's life added non AIRA Rolands to pretty much even cover guitar pedals with USB. The presets things is not correct. That is the basic access. There is a more in dept access level and a manual for it. There is also a master section and a mastering section. Also the decency of a stereo digital in that can be set as digital out for recording to hardware
It's called the Mix Performer for a reason, it's mainly a live mixer that is played like an instrument and for the growing DAW on stage trend and one man concerts. The only noise and distortion issue that I ever heard of was from one person who liked to have the faders wide open with nothing playing
Anyway, enough about the unit, Kaffiman opened with a query on a small format mixer with reaching for the size of the MG12XU if need be as well as the MIDI. Are we going to lift the form factor to the size of a Neve next?
The Presonus and the Yamaha DM3(s) got tons of effects internal, fully digital, avoiding the conversion completely.
@KaffiMann said he doesn't want to use USB, otherwise there would have been a lot cheaper options.
Wtf?! Adding another mixer is the solution to having two is already too much?
Well, your suggestions already well exceed these dimensions. Aside from that, it's fully analog.
You are forgetting the DJ-202, that's make mine actually a 3 mixer suggestion! And none of it is from looking up descriptions/catalogues/forums. Hands on
Not that much different from modular approach to home hi-fi over one box solutions featuring an assortment of brands working together. The MX-1 is designed to create such a harmony by syncing everything together and allowing access to synths right from the mixer
You can swap equipment in and out to suit and not be locked into one unit. It prolly also got retired due to the greater audience not having the aptitude in being able to imagine and apply the possibilities presented by its developers
Btw, the VT-4 is not a mixer but a mic preamp type of thing. The MX-1 is a line and digital level device and requires the use of the AIRA units with mic inputs connected to a AIRA link USB port or off board pres or consoles connected to the analog inputs. No different from connecting instruments or mics via pedals or tube pres to analog or digital mixers. The VT-4 is usually used when the MX-1 is not fed by an analog console. I dont need to take the MG12XU everywhere. Only when mixing a small ensemble. Otherwise, the JDXI (instead of a VT-4) is all that's needed for some vocals and vocal effects, including types not found on any digital console. A JDXI and VT4 or dual VT4s are plenty for a karaoke duet. I hope you understand that the VT4 is a dedicated mic pre and mic synth that can also input instruments
Sort of, that's why the MG12XU is my go to for small ensemble work and sometimes supported by the MX-1 but the MX-1 running the synths and FL Studio fed by Serato and a DJ-202 for playback and remix is the go to for regular DJ/karaoke work. The Yamaha console is only used with all the digital gear when more than two pres are needed for my situations
It's more fun when DJing to set up a remix loop using the DJ-202 and add live instruments like a JDXI synth and an electric bass via it and a couple of karaoke mics via VT-4s plus more drums and such through FL Studio all run through the MX-1 effects step sequencer for live dub than just sing to a plain old karaoke track
Watch from 3:40
A couple of my daughter's friends practice with her. I am setting up a mic pickup via the JDXI for the one on the sax and a Roland synth pickup for the one with the violin
It's just another way for a solo operator cover from a small band to an elaborate party show. A modular approach will always provide greater flexibility. Real practical uses in varies situations using equipement of the highest reputation and lowest reported issues
See, it's not about winning arguments, I don't know what Kaffi would prefer and I'm right now pretty down. It's not that I don't have any arguments, it's not that I hate you (I don't), I just don't have any energy and motivation left. So please excuse me, I'll take a break from the forum and try to fight my depression.
It is actually a moot argument. The MX-1 is long discontinued, and some who don't understand it sell theirs. Many of those really regret doing so later. You could also use a mac and run the VT-4 as a USB interface stacked with others like synths and USB audio interface(ASIO4ALL in windows) together with a DAW and motorised faders controller
We talk about the music gear because music is about pure joy, and it's a good thing to have all the time in the world to share joy and like a bunch of old farts to gather at a coffee shop to have the same arguments every day as only that circle is left to talk in depth with and that circle just keeps getting smaller. A bit of "wooo what if" is allowing me to start today knocking on the door of 50 with thoughts of bass, sun, returning to health by spending time on the water and with my music
There are much joyous music stuff happening and about to happen on this forum. Hang around and help make them better all around. I feel overwhelmed from the ton of help that I need, but having a go at it is keeping me keen. I am right now stumped regarding which exact charge controller to get, care to extend some energy towards that?
Thank you for your motivational post. I really appreciate it. My problems are much more existential, I like to help but I don't find any joy in that anymore. Life hasn't been kind to me and I'm probably an old fart already. I don't want to cause any drama, so I'll just stop here. HF and bye.
? The only thing I think I was decisive about in terms of USB:
At any rate, my personal preference would be a digital mixer of sorts. Better to stay in one domain for as much as possible IMO.
I am really hoping for something better than the MG12XU, it is a good baseline but I want something better for maybe around double the price but I am willing to stretch the budget if it is for the right reasons.
Come on ICG, we can be grumpy old farts together.
I want something stable and preferably digital that can make good recordings of analog sources. Most of my stuff is all synths in DAW using MIDI, most of it is zero recorded sound files unless I export my own wav to do something specific.
This mixer will be mainly used for my own stuff in my "cave", some collaborations, some live action.
I want something with good noise figures and that is very stable, 500€ is great - 1000€ is okay - 2000€ is more than I want to pay but I am willing to go there if it makes a difference.
Need a management system and amplifiers as well, need to feed 4 x 18" and some tops and that is also going to cost something so it would be nice if the cost is not too much more than 1000€ but there is no hard limit on anything.
@KaffiMann
Hey man, I am aware of a few different cave setups that like-minded individuals are running, including some based on mostly soft synths from a DAW
I haven't seen you knowledge this, so I am taking a guess that you may not be aware that DAWs are usually aligned with hardware. There is a right hardware per DAW even though all can work. For FL Studio, there are two dedicated controllers on the market and such
To really help you with options, we may know of, are you able to allow more details
Which DAW?
Which soft synth is your go to?
Roughly how many soft synths?
Which external hardware to sync with MIDI? Do they have MIDI ports or only MIDI over USB?
I assume that you have a keyboard controller already for the soft synths. Which controller?
Mic pres
How many do you need? Since you are a synth user, do you need a vocoder on a mic?
Line in
Which external gear with line outs? As well as any hardware instruments in the wish list?
There are three main types of synthy 'caves'
1 - Like mine, with multiple dedicated hardware all working in conjuction with a DAW + support software. Like my Serato DJ + FL Studio + Roland Cloud account and and all the soft synths on there augmenting the hardware JDXI and Akai MPK Mini Play synths. A lot of these caves use the MX-1 to bring all the hardware and software together. All have tried well featured consoles both analogue and digital and have relegated the console to support roles as they can only do mixdowns, not mixups (I hope you can get the meaning)
Apart from the MX-1, the also discontinued Roland DJ-808 could do this as well. A Roland DJ-202 + an MX-1 as a combo beats only a DJ-808. This first type of cave is for the hardware and teck junkie who also DJs and remixes
https://www.roland.com/au/products/dj-808/specifications/
2 - DAW + sof synths + USB Audio Interface. Usually only a keyboard controller that also has some mixer controls is used. A proper DAW controller with motorised faders is added by those that can afford one. Is this where you are at the moment?
3 - What killed the MX-1
This lot are the ones that prefer to do a lot out of the box but also connected to the box by using a box which really is the box ina box 😀!!
This is the setup using a groovebox at the heart. This is a hardware unit baisically a computer and synths as well as controller built ino a box as in case of the Akai, even the screen. But really its a collection on hardware including sound librarys and effects. This takes a lot of load of the pc and controls the DAW. There are inputs for mics and external gear. This seems to be the most popular way of bringing some hardware and DAW together. The Roland option is nuts!
https://www.roland.com/au/products/mc-707/
https://www.roland.com/au/products/verselab_mv-1/
https://www.akaipro.com/
How would you use the inputs on something like the MG12XU?
Hey man, I am aware of a few different cave setups that like-minded individuals are running, including some based on mostly soft synths from a DAW
I haven't seen you knowledge this, so I am taking a guess that you may not be aware that DAWs are usually aligned with hardware. There is a right hardware per DAW even though all can work. For FL Studio, there are two dedicated controllers on the market and such
To really help you with options, we may know of, are you able to allow more details
Which DAW?
Which soft synth is your go to?
Roughly how many soft synths?
Which external hardware to sync with MIDI? Do they have MIDI ports or only MIDI over USB?
I assume that you have a keyboard controller already for the soft synths. Which controller?
Mic pres
How many do you need? Since you are a synth user, do you need a vocoder on a mic?
Line in
Which external gear with line outs? As well as any hardware instruments in the wish list?
There are three main types of synthy 'caves'
1 - Like mine, with multiple dedicated hardware all working in conjuction with a DAW + support software. Like my Serato DJ + FL Studio + Roland Cloud account and and all the soft synths on there augmenting the hardware JDXI and Akai MPK Mini Play synths. A lot of these caves use the MX-1 to bring all the hardware and software together. All have tried well featured consoles both analogue and digital and have relegated the console to support roles as they can only do mixdowns, not mixups (I hope you can get the meaning)
Apart from the MX-1, the also discontinued Roland DJ-808 could do this as well. A Roland DJ-202 + an MX-1 as a combo beats only a DJ-808. This first type of cave is for the hardware and teck junkie who also DJs and remixes
https://www.roland.com/au/products/dj-808/specifications/
2 - DAW + sof synths + USB Audio Interface. Usually only a keyboard controller that also has some mixer controls is used. A proper DAW controller with motorised faders is added by those that can afford one. Is this where you are at the moment?
3 - What killed the MX-1
This lot are the ones that prefer to do a lot out of the box but also connected to the box by using a box which really is the box ina box 😀!!
This is the setup using a groovebox at the heart. This is a hardware unit baisically a computer and synths as well as controller built ino a box as in case of the Akai, even the screen. But really its a collection on hardware including sound librarys and effects. This takes a lot of load of the pc and controls the DAW. There are inputs for mics and external gear. This seems to be the most popular way of bringing some hardware and DAW together. The Roland option is nuts!
https://www.roland.com/au/products/mc-707/
https://www.roland.com/au/products/verselab_mv-1/
https://www.akaipro.com/
How would you use the inputs on something like the MG12XU?
DAW: I have a hate/hate relationship with FL studio since version 2.36, I have most of my projects in this program,
Used to work with Acid before it got ruined, have a relatively new license for it as well..
Have had several licenses for various Cubase and Samplitude Pro versions.
Strongly considering the top version of Bitwig.
Do not want hardware that is optimalized towards any particular DAW.
Will be using classic MIDI keyboard, controller, sequencer and looking to make and buy some hardware synths alongside my software synth library, there are maybe 10-15 sw synths that I regularly use and at least 20-30 if I count the stuff in the "sometimes" category, most of them are licensed VST based synths and therefore able to work in different DAW's.
Inputs would be used for mics and hw synths mostly, maybe a bass and a guitar.
ICG: I have an aversion towards cheaper Behringer gear, would rather pay more to escape from that brand, maybe I could consider the more "top end" stuff from them.
Being able to link Mixer controls to DAW would be considered a great bonus feature.
Edit:
Used to work with Acid before it got ruined, have a relatively new license for it as well..
Have had several licenses for various Cubase and Samplitude Pro versions.
Strongly considering the top version of Bitwig.
Do not want hardware that is optimalized towards any particular DAW.
Will be using classic MIDI keyboard, controller, sequencer and looking to make and buy some hardware synths alongside my software synth library, there are maybe 10-15 sw synths that I regularly use and at least 20-30 if I count the stuff in the "sometimes" category, most of them are licensed VST based synths and therefore able to work in different DAW's.
Inputs would be used for mics and hw synths mostly, maybe a bass and a guitar.
ICG: I have an aversion towards cheaper Behringer gear, would rather pay more to escape from that brand, maybe I could consider the more "top end" stuff from them.
Being able to link Mixer controls to DAW would be considered a great bonus feature.
Edit:
Laptop outside the house, stationary inside the house, no tablet please.
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Above this is only the Behringer X32 Compact/Producer and bigger. The Behringer X18 already got the midas preamps BTW.
The Behringer can do that.
Yes, the Behringer X32 Producer is a valid option, and I know age was not part of the criteria, but the X32 is from 2013 and the MG12XU is from 2014....
You have given me something to think about, the world has progressed a little bit, I am happy with the gear I have from Yamaha and Audient.
A more modern solution would be the Audient EVO 16, can even use multi channel ADAT I/O, there are some obvious limitations, but it should be possible to link the mixing functions with a reasonably priced DAW controller like the Presonus Faderport 8.
This combo (Audient EVO 16 + Presonus Faderport 8) is almost compareable in cost to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 but with significantly more functionality, like decent motor faders, Smartgain, a full 8 analog I/O + 2 ADAT I/O for up to 24 channels in AND out.
Considering my previous experience with Audient and the features they bring to the table (especially for loners like me), it seems like a solid deal.
You have given me something to think about, the world has progressed a little bit, I am happy with the gear I have from Yamaha and Audient.
A more modern solution would be the Audient EVO 16, can even use multi channel ADAT I/O, there are some obvious limitations, but it should be possible to link the mixing functions with a reasonably priced DAW controller like the Presonus Faderport 8.
This combo (Audient EVO 16 + Presonus Faderport 8) is almost compareable in cost to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 but with significantly more functionality, like decent motor faders, Smartgain, a full 8 analog I/O + 2 ADAT I/O for up to 24 channels in AND out.
Considering my previous experience with Audient and the features they bring to the table (especially for loners like me), it seems like a solid deal.
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I thought your main requirement was MIDI functionality?! 😳 I mean, if that's not required, there are at least 2 dozend mixers I've skipped because of the lack of MIDI.
E: I've seen several mixer which got similar features like smartgain. I can tell you, it's a nice-to-have but it's not the best invention since sliced bread. The problem is, it's only active for a a while, you deactivate it and after that the Evo 16 does not have a compressor or limiter (which all of the rivals do). The better way is to set it up in that time or use auto-level and then put a limiter on it - which they don't have. They are so proud of their 58dB mic preamp gain but even the presonus got 67dB plus a noise gate. You have to buy software bundles to get such functionality (yeah, welcome in the year 2024!) and you don't have direct access to most of the features. You can access the mixer only via software, which equals the permanent need for a laptop. Honestly, I cannot understand what's the appeal of it for you. At all.
E: I've seen several mixer which got similar features like smartgain. I can tell you, it's a nice-to-have but it's not the best invention since sliced bread. The problem is, it's only active for a a while, you deactivate it and after that the Evo 16 does not have a compressor or limiter (which all of the rivals do). The better way is to set it up in that time or use auto-level and then put a limiter on it - which they don't have. They are so proud of their 58dB mic preamp gain but even the presonus got 67dB plus a noise gate. You have to buy software bundles to get such functionality (yeah, welcome in the year 2024!) and you don't have direct access to most of the features. You can access the mixer only via software, which equals the permanent need for a laptop. Honestly, I cannot understand what's the appeal of it for you. At all.
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I understand the confusion, but on the previous page I decided to forego this one demand, because I get extra functionality using a very cheap standalone MIDI interface.
The Audient ID44 MKII is also a very interesting option.
The Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 is still a contender, have not written it off yet as it brings some very nice features to the table. I have some time to decide so will definitely scrutinize all the options thoroughly.
The shortest shortlist is now:
Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2
Audient EVO 16 + some DAW controller of sorts
Audient ID44 + some DAW controller of sorts
It will take a bit more for me to seriously consider the Behringer X32 and the Yamaha DM3S, the cost is much higher than the difference in features.
The Audient ID44 MKII is also a very interesting option.
True, this was the thought behind the original list of criteria.
The Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 is still a contender, have not written it off yet as it brings some very nice features to the table. I have some time to decide so will definitely scrutinize all the options thoroughly.
The shortest shortlist is now:
Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2
Audient EVO 16 + some DAW controller of sorts
Audient ID44 + some DAW controller of sorts
It will take a bit more for me to seriously consider the Behringer X32 and the Yamaha DM3S, the cost is much higher than the difference in features.