Yea, I think I corrected myself in that interview after a bit. We also talked about their new version coming soon. But maybe you haven't gotten that far in the video yet...
Very interesting that Greg likes valve amps. and recommended Quicksilver at the begining.
What you should check out Erin (if you haven't already) is valve amp simulations. VST, AU plugins.
Tweakazoids delight!? Ooh that will really blow your mind.
Don't get me wrong, the simulation doesn't sound like the real thing, because the real thing sounds the way it does because of idiosyncrasies in the circuit or chip design. But it's much easier to send your audio through the virtual plugin, than haul out the real valve amp or pre-amp or compressor, dust it off, plug it in etc...
What you should check out Erin (if you haven't already) is valve amp simulations. VST, AU plugins.
Tweakazoids delight!? Ooh that will really blow your mind.
Don't get me wrong, the simulation doesn't sound like the real thing, because the real thing sounds the way it does because of idiosyncrasies in the circuit or chip design. But it's much easier to send your audio through the virtual plugin, than haul out the real valve amp or pre-amp or compressor, dust it off, plug it in etc...
I find it interesting that Greg uses linear phase filtering, something that get's brushed away by Toole/Olive as being unnoticeable.
I can see why Greg produced successful designs. He's a mix of objectivist and subjectivist, and obviously likes to experiment. I'd love to talk to him.
Very enjoyable talk. I really enjoy hearing that level of real world pragmatic experience, and from a science perspective..
Greg has me wanting to try a tube amp on my compression drivers. I can't believe i'm even saying that, having decided that once amps meet a certain level, they make too little a difference to fool with further.
But his unabashed mix of objectivist and subjectivist (as fatmarley puts it) is compelling.
More and more, the guys I'm finding the most compelling/interesting and the ones who are keenly science based, but remain subjectivist at the same time. Guys Dick Heyser, John Meyer, Greg, etc
Yes, caught the linear phase xovers part too. Would sure like to hear more about their implementation and his use of the DEQX unit..
Greg has me wanting to try a tube amp on my compression drivers. I can't believe i'm even saying that, having decided that once amps meet a certain level, they make too little a difference to fool with further.
But his unabashed mix of objectivist and subjectivist (as fatmarley puts it) is compelling.
More and more, the guys I'm finding the most compelling/interesting and the ones who are keenly science based, but remain subjectivist at the same time. Guys Dick Heyser, John Meyer, Greg, etc
Yes, caught the linear phase xovers part too. Would sure like to hear more about their implementation and his use of the DEQX unit..
Agreed.
Science doesn’t mean we know everything.
Science refers to what we, as society, know so far. I mean, best available evidence, this is what we know now.
True scientists are a lot more uncertain then the confident sounding misinformation peddling Goop wackos; or those consumers over at ASR dancing along to the Preference Score Pied Piper, because scientists know that they don’t know.
Things extolled as evidence, are based on research that is often old. eg, frequency response is king, and the way the king should be be dressed is via 360 degree measurements aka spinorama.
Thanks to Sean Olive and Floyd Toole’s research findings from mid 1980s to early 1990s. It took a full 2 decades before this was ratified as - CEA/CTA 2034A in 2015. And even in 2022 only a few manufacturers are releasing their speakers with this data.
Is this data complete?.
No. But is it better than a single on axis? Most certainly.
But isn’t everything? No. There are still many Unknowns. And sometimes we have to work in evidence free zones. And from new observation comes hypothesis comes experiments comes analysis comes conclusion. That is the scientific/ empirical method.
is it generalisable to our own living room in stereo. To what degree of statistical confidence ? Or is it as good as flipping a coin?
And if the frequency response is king; what is the Queen, or the Jack?
Is it dynamic range?
Is it dispersion/directivity?
Is it timing accuracy?
Is it non-linear distortion?
Is it diffraction?
Is it something else?
the jury is still out on this. we must also keep in mind that in the competitive commercial world, some things are trade secrets. So the evidence for them may not yet available for public scrutiny.
remember then Peak Consult released their speakers with their minimally diffraction baffles 2 decades ago? You know, beveled front baffles covered in leather and using polypropylene cone drivers?
Was that marketing or science, or a bit of both?
Maybe they have the evidence this matters, but have not released this into the public for scrutiny. Keep their cards close to their chest for competitive advantage.
Back to the valve amp thing.
I do agree with using valve amps in music production. I do agree with his with using valve amps for musical enjoyment, or enhancing the illusion of the live performance.
I am just not sure I agree with him in term with valve amps for music reproduction.
for instance; if you have ever been to a live concert; unamplified, and listened in one of the stalls above the performers, and closed your eyes; you get this big wash of what feels like monaural music all around you; and whichever way you turn your head it still sounds the same. It sounds very warm and lush, without much of anything about 10KHz. Like the whole top end had been rolled off in a tweeter. But it’s unequivocally “the real thing”
but at home, I might want the special effects or imaging cues when listening to your favourite record or CD or streaming audio. I like it sometimes; more so that the lush warm sound of Multimillion dollar treated concert call.
It is the real thing? Well no; it’s not; it recorded music. Let not forget that recorded music is a form of music presented for mass consumption. The poor artist, cannot, and does does want to perform 40 hours a week like the typical job in advanced modern economies. He’s performing at night but during the day he wants to sleep, later he needs to feed the kids; take them to school; make the rent. The daily grind of performing and intermittent tours is tiring. He could just get a steady job as a school music teacher or piano tuner. He does want to land a recording contract, to live more, work less.
Does she want to enhance your enjoyment of her music? To be honest that not his priority!
that marketing term “ as the artist intended “ well thats fancy term made up in the 21C.
The artist didn’t intend you to listen in any particular way!
Just like the artists has multiple guitars or pianos or favourite mics or compressors and a predeliction for vintage gear and tones to emulate their favourite musical heroes, and he has as much problems with Gear Acquisition Syndrome as you or you, the artist didn’t intend for you to listen in any fixed way.
Just as long as you enjoy it; respect the music is as a form of self expression; don’t copy or steal his music without a form of recognition; and if you hit the big time and makes a gazillions dollars please share it with him… well as long as you it share the love and and spend some money, they are happy.
It’s their blood/sweat/tears/sorry job.
i hope this doesn’t sound off topic; but the idea of the real thing.
It’s an illusion.
That we happily go along with.
Science doesn’t mean we know everything.
Science refers to what we, as society, know so far. I mean, best available evidence, this is what we know now.
True scientists are a lot more uncertain then the confident sounding misinformation peddling Goop wackos; or those consumers over at ASR dancing along to the Preference Score Pied Piper, because scientists know that they don’t know.
Things extolled as evidence, are based on research that is often old. eg, frequency response is king, and the way the king should be be dressed is via 360 degree measurements aka spinorama.
Thanks to Sean Olive and Floyd Toole’s research findings from mid 1980s to early 1990s. It took a full 2 decades before this was ratified as - CEA/CTA 2034A in 2015. And even in 2022 only a few manufacturers are releasing their speakers with this data.
Is this data complete?.
No. But is it better than a single on axis? Most certainly.
But isn’t everything? No. There are still many Unknowns. And sometimes we have to work in evidence free zones. And from new observation comes hypothesis comes experiments comes analysis comes conclusion. That is the scientific/ empirical method.
And if the frequency response is king; what is the Queen, or the Jack?
Is it dynamic range?
Is it dispersion/directivity?
Is it timing accuracy?
Is it non-linear distortion?
Is it diffraction?
Is it something else?
the jury is still out on this. we must also keep in mind that in the competitive commercial world, some things are trade secrets. So the evidence for them may not yet available for public scrutiny.
remember then Peak Consult released their speakers with their minimally diffraction baffles 2 decades ago? You know, beveled front baffles covered in leather and using polypropylene cone drivers?
Was that marketing or science, or a bit of both?
Maybe they have the evidence this matters, but have not released this into the public for scrutiny. Keep their cards close to their chest for competitive advantage.
Back to the valve amp thing.
I do agree with using valve amps in music production. I do agree with his with using valve amps for musical enjoyment, or enhancing the illusion of the live performance.
I am just not sure I agree with him in term with valve amps for music reproduction.
for instance; if you have ever been to a live concert; unamplified, and listened in one of the stalls above the performers, and closed your eyes; you get this big wash of what feels like monaural music all around you; and whichever way you turn your head it still sounds the same. It sounds very warm and lush, without much of anything about 10KHz. Like the whole top end had been rolled off in a tweeter. But it’s unequivocally “the real thing”
but at home, I might want the special effects or imaging cues when listening to your favourite record or CD or streaming audio. I like it sometimes; more so that the lush warm sound of Multimillion dollar treated concert call.
It is the real thing? Well no; it’s not; it recorded music. Let not forget that recorded music is a form of music presented for mass consumption. The poor artist, cannot, and does does want to perform 40 hours a week like the typical job in advanced modern economies. He’s performing at night but during the day he wants to sleep, later he needs to feed the kids; take them to school; make the rent. The daily grind of performing and intermittent tours is tiring. He could just get a steady job as a school music teacher or piano tuner. He does want to land a recording contract, to live more, work less.
Does she want to enhance your enjoyment of her music? To be honest that not his priority!
that marketing term “ as the artist intended “ well thats fancy term made up in the 21C.
The artist didn’t intend you to listen in any particular way!
Just like the artists has multiple guitars or pianos or favourite mics or compressors and a predeliction for vintage gear and tones to emulate their favourite musical heroes, and he has as much problems with Gear Acquisition Syndrome as you or you, the artist didn’t intend for you to listen in any fixed way.
Just as long as you enjoy it; respect the music is as a form of self expression; don’t copy or steal his music without a form of recognition; and if you hit the big time and makes a gazillions dollars please share it with him… well as long as you it share the love and and spend some money, they are happy.
It’s their blood/sweat/tears/sorry job.
i hope this doesn’t sound off topic; but the idea of the real thing.
It’s an illusion.
That we happily go along with.
Last edited:
I'm really glad you said that. I was getting ready to post and make some suggestions on how the discussion could be expanded (if there will be a Part 2) - but I don't think that is necessary now that I know this was just meant to be a casual chat between fellow enthusiasts. Thanks again for starting such an awesome channel and bringing on such cools guests! Much appreciate it!
Last edited:
ha I had the same thought. I thought it was a Behringer DEQ at first, and was trying to figure out why Timbers was talking about FIR filters.
Right.
But, the key here is:
Weeks before we recorded this, Greg and I had a long conversation on the phone. When I asked about him coming on my channel to talk, he specifically said he preferred to have a conversation and not feel like he needed to prep for an interview with pointed questions.
People get the wrong idea about what I'm trying to do in my "interviews" (and note, I use the quotations). This isn't an interview. I don't conduct interviews and I hope that they never come across like the typical definition of "interview". If they do, then someone let me know because I will need to recalibrate. 😉
My goal is to have a conversation like you would with a friend. And - I don't know about others - I never roll up to my friends with a laundry list of questions and pressure them into providing an on-the-spot answer on topics they may not necessarily want to discuss. So, I let the conversation flow organically. I have questions in mind and fit them in where I can. And I try to make it relatable to the audience... covering a broad spectrum of hardcore enthusiasts who could write a biography on Greg to newcomers who have never heard a loudspeaker engineer talk about his job. All in some allotted time; because it's not infinite.
No matter what I do, I get people who complain about something they get to watch for free and aren't even forced to watch. People expect me to deep dive into topics that would take hours but then others complain that a video that is over 30 minutes is "too long". People say I don't prepare, others "love" the chats. I can't please everyone and I'm not trying to. What I am trying to do is have a good time, hope the guest enjoys just having a regular ol' conversation with a fellow audio enthusiast and hope they enjoy it enough to want to come back and then talk about the deeper stuff. So far, everyone that has come on my channel has mentioned wanting to come back. Hopefully the viewership will be inspired to think a bit and ask questions that can be addressed in a follow-on.
That's what I like to do. If others don't like it then they are welcome to have guests on their own channel(s) and conduct a "real" interview. But that's not what I want to do and that's not personally what I would watch anyway. Besides, the interview done by Positive Feedback - which I linked in my video - was a great interview. I didn't see the need to replicate that.
And, finally, Greg and I have already talked about him coming back. Currently we plan for mid-June. 😉
- Erin
Erin, thank you for your contributions....your efforts are a great asset to the entire audio community (and to my own DIY efforts.)
It's your show, and your right to produce it, however you see fit.
Sorry some folks can't seem to accept that. I think most do.
Hopefully we will simply express thanks, perhaps offering truly helpful & welcome suggestions, ....& have good follow up conversations.......
Glad to hear Greg is coming back...if it fits I'd like to proffer some questions about how he goes about tuning...
It's your show, and your right to produce it, however you see fit.
Sorry some folks can't seem to accept that. I think most do.
Hopefully we will simply express thanks, perhaps offering truly helpful & welcome suggestions, ....& have good follow up conversations.......
Glad to hear Greg is coming back...if it fits I'd like to proffer some questions about how he goes about tuning...
Sad truth is that you gotta/gonna develop a thick skin in this game of public life/service.
Not everyone is gonna like it; not everyone is going to be civil and do what their mother told them “don’t say anything if you don’t have anything nice to say”
Besides, some people may be having mental health stress or illness. Or social skills that are a work in progress…
Or simply a **** day. A metaphorical pebble in their shoe-you can’t see it; but there sure is something annoying them.
remind yourself that people who may tug your chain also create controversy and increase engagement and viewership.
love your content. Love after yourself. Look after you family.
Big ups.
peace out.
Best regards,
Thanh aka tktran/303 aka Transl8ter
opinionated fella from down under
Donation coming…
Not everyone is gonna like it; not everyone is going to be civil and do what their mother told them “don’t say anything if you don’t have anything nice to say”
Besides, some people may be having mental health stress or illness. Or social skills that are a work in progress…
Or simply a **** day. A metaphorical pebble in their shoe-you can’t see it; but there sure is something annoying them.
remind yourself that people who may tug your chain also create controversy and increase engagement and viewership.
love your content. Love after yourself. Look after you family.
Big ups.
peace out.
Best regards,
Thanh aka tktran/303 aka Transl8ter
opinionated fella from down under
Donation coming…
Last edited:
Erin,
First and foremost: Sincere apologies if my message comes off as critcising - it certainly wasn't meant that way. I'm a big fan of your channel - as it is literally the only of its kind.
When I was thinking about how the discussion could be expanded, I was guilty about approaching it with a very narrow perspective in mind. I discovered your channel through diyaudio/AudioScienceReview/etc. - and so I incorrectly made the assumption that most viewers of your channel have a deep interest in DIY audio and the technical side of this hobby. When I saw that Greg T will be joining you, I again mistakenly assumed the discussion would touch on technical points (given his role at Harman). My mind was like: "Hey, here is an opportunity to learn from one of the best in the business". But I can certainly appreciate (and respect) that i) Greg has little desire to take the conversation in that direction, and ii) and that technical junkies (of which I'm not learned enough to be today, but hopefully one day 🙂) potentially make up a very small portion of your viewership.
I didn't take it that way.
I think you overcorrected based on my post above. They don't make up a small portion. But they aren't the only people who watch.
Thanks, Erin. Just keep in mind that for every one hater, you have a 10,000x more that appreciate your efforts. I also noticed that you've gone the extra mile to bring the measurement vs. non-measurement community together. Keep up the good work.
I told ya'll he'd be back. If you're around make sure to jump in and ask questions.