Gainclone vs. Aleph/Zen V4

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vsr123

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Joined 2003
#1
Hi
Any opinions on the sound between the Gainclone and the ALeph 3 and Zen V4 amp? The gainclone I am referring to is the one similar to the sakurasystems (47 labs).

I guess Peter built one, I saw postings regarding this but didnt see any comparision on how it sounds compared to these amps.

thanks
vsr
 
#2
Funny you ask, I'm gonna test my gainclone against a Zen 4 tomorrow hopefully. I have a friend w/ zen 4. We'll see if I can get to it! I'll definitely post the results here. FYI...my gainclone is not quite what peter daniels is 🙂...ok...so not even close. Should be fun though!

-Matthew K. Olson
 
#3
vsr123 said:


I guess Peter built one, I saw postings regarding this but didnt see any comparision on how it sounds compared to these amps.
Click to expand...

It all depends on ingredients😉
I can built 3 gainclones (same chip)and ea. will sound different. I compared OPA549, TDA7294 and LM3875 and prefer the LM chip the most. Didn't like TDA at all and OPA wasn't that bad. I also compared TDA to AlephX and Aleph didn't blow away the gainclone. Aleph had more finese and air but overall signature was similar, with gainclone sounding more forward and Aleph more laid back. I built my Aleph X very carefully, with good selection of parts and the same goes for gainclone. I also compared gainclone to original Zen amp and I'd say that both amps can appeal to different tastes. LM based GC is very direct and intimate, with some virtues that make music sound like real music. It may be that trebles or bass might not be ideal by absolute standards, but overall presentation draws listener attention, is very enjoyable and on certain material can be simply magical. Zen, OTOH, is more peaceful amp, with seemingly slower tempo and very distinctive space between instruments and notes. It seems maybe a bit harsh or bright and maybe veiled a bit, but after my experience with TDA7294, I start to believe that this is a sonic signature attributed to mosfets.

This is mostly a matter of personal prefference and taste. There are people who built gainclones and didn't like them much ( probably because the construction wasn't good enough or it simply wasn't to their taste in sound presentation). I'm glad I didn't start my audio adventure with gainclones, because I wouldn't learn much😉. Instead, I started with A75, Zen, Aleph 5, AlephX and eventually, after almost refusing to pay attention to chip amp, I tried it too. I'm still using Aleph X as my main amp, but if somebody would took it away and leave me with gainclones only, I wouldn't despair.😉
 
#4
I agree with Peter in his analysis. I presently have a Zen V4 and the GC side by side and have been switching them back and fourth for about three weeks.

My original intention was to use the GC as the base amp and the zen for the mid and uppers. I may do the opposite now. The Zen, although not a powerhouse, seems to have much better definition and dynamics in the bass, it also has a deeper sound stage. The GC on the other hand seems tubby and out of control. The GC really shines in the mid to upper, it has a wide stage presentlation.

Quite frankly I like both of them. My preference would probably be the Zen since it was my first amp and it gets hot.😉

Scott
 
#7
I mean the ZEN amp.

By the way, what are these switches for on the front panel of the 47 Labs Gaincard? I heard they are put between the OPA output and the speaker terminals. If so, the original GC operates all the time. I don't see switches on the other products of theirs also. That's strange as far as the DAC operates with higher voltage and it probably gets rather hot.

Has anyone had the chance to compare the performance of the original GC with that of a clone?
 
#8
Peter Daniel wrote

"LM based GC is very direct and intimate, with some virtues that make music sound like real music. It may be that trebles or bass might not be ideal by absolute standards, but overall presentation draws listener attention, is very enjoyable and on certain material can be simply magical."

Thank you for putting words to my thoughts 🙂

What you decribe is exactly what I experienced with my simple trial with LM3886 amp.

Think I will try tri-amp with batteries to see if this GC idea can be really state of the art so to speak.

/Peter
 
#10
I have a ZenV4 and a OPA541 GC. This GC has had some genetic modification through time (1 week), as it sounds much better now (and I didnt touch its guts) 😎

In the beginning the differences between the two amps were quite big and the Zen won by far. But now they are more subtle and I am playing the GC a little bit more to get it burned. The Zen seems to extend more the harmonics of the voices and instruments, with a richer presentation. The GC is much more direct sounding, but I have to wait for it to sound its best.

Miguel
 
#11
Bricolo said:
peter, can you detail us how your tda sounded cimapred to the others gainclones?

PS: was it a TDA7294V or TDA7294S?
Click to expand...

Some info is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=159946#post159946

I think it was V version.

I did a listening session with some tube affectionados yesterday and this is what they commented:

If someone is in love with tubes, they will never like SS amp. However, GC has some virtues that it is possible for tube lovers to like this amp. It has speed which tube amps don't have and it has much better definition in bass, actually the bass is very good and accurate on GC (with proper implementation). GC doesn't have the bloom of tubes, but it makes up for that with a speed, and sometimes this may be actually preferred. And the detail is amazing.
 
#12
TUBE GAINCLONE

Hi Guys

For those who may be interested here is a...

A TUBED version Gainclone

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Copyright 2003 - Joe Rasmussen - NOT PUBLIC DOMAIN, FOR NON-COMMERCIAL USE ONLY.

joe@vacuumstate.com


See thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9557

Actual Circuits, Power Supply etc, lots more. Read posting from:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=164935#post164934


Joe Rasmusssen
 
#13
So I guess the next obvious question sounds like this:

Tube Gainclone vs. Tube Zen?

Or a more complicated question: Gainclone vs Aleph 3 vs Zen vs Tube Gainclone vs Tube Zen vs whatever you can think of ... is a Tube Gainclone actually better than an ordinary Gainclone?

I guess a good question to pose is: Tube Gainclone vs. Ordinary Gainclone? Afterwards, we can look at the Zen problem.

One tube Zen design can be found at: http://web.vip.hr/pcb-design.vip/zen-hyb.html. It's not my favorite design, though. I perfer using a source-follower MOSFET with a high-gain triode gain stage, as seen on the current thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24737

I've been studying how to make a 6C45pi tube driver with a source-follower Zen - next I'll look at doing it without the interstage transformer. Maybe, or maybe not ... I'm a tube guy, and I like interstage transformers more than I like coupling capacitors (let the lynching begin!)
 
#15
keep in mind, gainclones are not for all speakers...

i did peter daniel's implimentation with a few upgrades and they fall flat on their face while trying to drive my speakers (magnepans). they are way overbuilt and made for a demanding load with excess heatsinking and power supplies. they clip at 61 watts per channel, all driven. however, they sound horrible on my speakers.

if you have difficult speakers, take this into consideration, if not, dont 🙂
 
#18
cowanrg said:
keep in mind, gainclones are not for all speakers...

if you have difficult speakers, take this into consideration, if not, dont 🙂
Click to expand...

Never found any amp that is for all speakers... ?

But quite right, the gainclones are not for all speakers, but then again SE & SET amps are not either.

So I don't think we, who are gainclone users, should have to make too much of an apology on that score. I don't feel all that deprived because I don't use Krells to drive my speakers (my pocket thanks me for that). Now here is an amusing thought, have you ever seen a system where Krell was driving Lowthers? I think it would have a lot of audiophiles laughing in the isles.

Joe R.

PS: Want to look at some pics I took at the European Triode Festival held Dec 4-7 :

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~lisaras/ETF_2003/ETF_2003.htm
 
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