Bose has come to Sweden. I noticed that they use a very false screachy sounding music in their tv commercial. The next commercial sound just fine.
I suspect you did not take em field theory, nor control system theory.
Electronics, perhaps high school? You don't seem to understand at the BsEE level.
jn
At least you know better! In their defense, their aviator noise cancelling headsets are reputed to be quite good.
I used them on a flight to england, I loved them. It's a weird feeling when you first turn them on, and it's so strange when the stewardess talks to you but you hear nothing. I'm not sure if "aviator" type is what they handed out.
jn
I was about to throw my Meyers in the garbage, then I realised. You almost had me, Bose.
You are missing the point, David. The best, most refined snake oil starts out with a valid, or at least plausible analysis which shows us that we all have a "problem". Then they tell us how their product "solves" the putative problem. Thankfully, jneutron hasn't descended that far yet, but he still provides an excellent example of how the snake oil merchants start.
Without questioning Mr. Neutron's assumptions, analysis, or math, what has he shown us? What is the largest possible audible effect of all this? Roughly, that under the right conditions, a sufficiently long run of ordinary speaker wire, connected to a normal amplifier on one end and a normal speaker on the other end, could produce a "settling time" differential between stereo channels at audible (high) frequencies which could reach into the are where human subjects can discern an inter-aural delay difference. That's a lot of hand-waving to say that IF everything he said is correct, and IF your speaker cables are long enough, it might sound like the guitar player leans an inch to his left when he hits a high note, or like the high-hat shifts a couple of inches when there is a strong bass note in one channel. I suppose it is also just possible that somebody would care about that, or notice it.
Luckily, the wires between my amps and speaker drivers are about one meter long, and the preceding active crossover/EQ no doubt introduces larger phase/time shifts than we are discussing here, so it's all moot. Entertaining though.
Without questioning Mr. Neutron's assumptions, analysis, or math, what has he shown us? What is the largest possible audible effect of all this? Roughly, that under the right conditions, a sufficiently long run of ordinary speaker wire, connected to a normal amplifier on one end and a normal speaker on the other end, could produce a "settling time" differential between stereo channels at audible (high) frequencies which could reach into the are where human subjects can discern an inter-aural delay difference. That's a lot of hand-waving to say that IF everything he said is correct, and IF your speaker cables are long enough, it might sound like the guitar player leans an inch to his left when he hits a high note, or like the high-hat shifts a couple of inches when there is a strong bass note in one channel. I suppose it is also just possible that somebody would care about that, or notice it.
Luckily, the wires between my amps and speaker drivers are about one meter long, and the preceding active crossover/EQ no doubt introduces larger phase/time shifts than we are discussing here, so it's all moot. Entertaining though.
You need the proper Combat ANR versions for talk through and ambient sound, bit ugly and rather large though, ambient noise in planes, helicopters and vehicles is too high so they use electronic talk through, passive ambient talk through is better🙂
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actually the units are tenths of an inch for 10s of microseconds - which is why I point to all of the much greater multidriver radiation and XO probelms that are going to swamp the cable Z effect
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A PDF of the previously linked Nordost presentation is available here:
Nordost | Manufacturer of High End Audio Cable, Video Cable & Speaker Cable
'New Approaches to Audio Measurement'
It is quite an interesting read, also the graphs with un-readable scales are a bit of a let down. There are all the usual suspects in the prose...
Nordost | Manufacturer of High End Audio Cable, Video Cable & Speaker Cable
'New Approaches to Audio Measurement'
It is quite an interesting read, also the graphs with un-readable scales are a bit of a let down. There are all the usual suspects in the prose...
Please trust me, John is going nowhere near snake oil. His argument is not really about differential delays per se, but rather the effect of a symmetric delay on the localization of a virtual source when the virtual source is not centered. I think he's incorrect about the audibility so it's not what I'm spending my limited lab time on, but that's different than believing that there's absolutely no plausibility and that the claims are growing from a steaming brown pile.
Even by probing the line, it is very difficult to test for this delay.
The set-up changes from the normal “amplifier/line/load” to “amplifier/sensor(s)/detector(s)/line/load”.
Introducing detecting apparatus in the set-up demands knowledge and care for disturbing impedances, changing loops and injecting noise as minimally as possible.
These (at least the distribution of impedances ) will change though and the parameter under measurement with the test set-up may differ from the parameter occurring (if it occurs) at the simpler “amplifier/line/load” set.
Jn is a person to trust he understands the meaning of 'measurement' and implications of conducting such.
His proposal for observing this particular effect by audibly noting the shifting of central image in the area between two loudspeakers is not to be confused with a proposal for measuring the effect.
George
The set-up changes from the normal “amplifier/line/load” to “amplifier/sensor(s)/detector(s)/line/load”.
Introducing detecting apparatus in the set-up demands knowledge and care for disturbing impedances, changing loops and injecting noise as minimally as possible.
These (at least the distribution of impedances ) will change though and the parameter under measurement with the test set-up may differ from the parameter occurring (if it occurs) at the simpler “amplifier/line/load” set.
Jn is a person to trust he understands the meaning of 'measurement' and implications of conducting such.
His proposal for observing this particular effect by audibly noting the shifting of central image in the area between two loudspeakers is not to be confused with a proposal for measuring the effect.
George
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Like I said before, this came out in 2009 and so far NOTHING has come from it. It's business as usual for Nordost. Baffle them with bullsh!t if you have nothing substantial to show.
So... a poster mentions IC's, which are more ground loop challenged, so I ask how the return current in the IC's is controlled....
And then you paste my comment towards a different poster who appears to have a limited understanding of em theory yet is posing..
You're all over the place trying in vain to discredit others. What a diversionary show you put on.
And then this beaut:
At any point in time, have I ever promoted or sold anything?
You've not portrayed yourself in a good light here David.
YET??😉
I have provided solid t-line understandings, analysis, ramifications...how the level of delay can exceed thresholds of discernment which humans have demonstrated through testing, have defined a solid electrical model which can be used to predict results, have presented various problems associated with test concerns in both the electrical as well as audibility testing.
I have provided an analysis, a hypothesis, and a testable model. This is called the scientific method. And quite honestly, I do not care what the results are.. The fact that people who sell snake oil have adopted a basic schtick which looks line the scientific method should come as no surprise to anyone. The purveyors aren't stupid.
btw, I have hilited in red the extremely important items. Testable, and no vested interest.
An inch sideways displacement is pretty ludicrous. I'd say 6 inches to a foot, perhaps at ten feet. I can't believe an inch would be discernable..
You've mistaken prop velocity in the air with the geometric ramifications. A common mistake when thinking about localization with two ears.
So far, so good..
Hello, Neumann. No candy for you...😉
Ah, ok...you get your candy..
Bingo.
Measuring high slew rate currents in a low impedance environment without disturbing the entity being test is a BI#CH., and we're talking about an in the face, full up, mach 4, windup from left field slap you in da face B.
I've fought this issue at 1 amp per second, and at 4 amps per nanosecond.
jn
yes the delay is easy to calc, but I don't believe we actually record, preserve in the mastering/production processing or reproduce the delays or geometry in commercial music
and the error you are talking about is like complaining about astigmatism that your optometrist wouldn't bother correcting while multidriver loudspeakers are like viewing images in funhouse mirrors
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