Way to go dumptruck - now you have a good set of drivers to test and share your findings.
Btw, please note that for break-in Mark Fenlon advises against running artificial signals; vocal music, jazz, soft instrumentals - basically stuff sans low bass and with a non-repetitive pattern is recommended. I wanted to do break-in with some heavy metal but then learned that's a no no. 🙂
Btw, please note that for break-in Mark Fenlon advises against running artificial signals; vocal music, jazz, soft instrumentals - basically stuff sans low bass and with a non-repetitive pattern is recommended. I wanted to do break-in with some heavy metal but then learned that's a no no. 🙂
Is it so that the drive unit will be "upset" if exposed to Rammstein rather Vienna Teng at the beginning of its life as a loudspeaker? Maybe there is a list over approved bands and musicians.
Sorry, but such ideas sounds like quasi-science to me.
Don't hammer them right out of the box, give them a nice EASY break-in, just like what the faq sheet says. My Enabled 6p's have been performing flawlessly on the desktop for a couple of years now.
Mark isn't a "quasi-science" kind of guy. I think the "break-in" procedure is to discourage people from subjecting their brand new drivers to loud, bass heavy electronic/house types of music.
jeff
Tiny box of tiny speakers arrived today. They are probably only now approaching room temperature. I think I'll have some time to mess with them this weekend. Fostex is first up. The Alpair 6p fits the Fostex boxes (which really aren't as horrible as you might think for $26, should be fine for even a finished product with a few improvements, I think), but I'd have to add some wood to flush mount them and then a tweeter wouldn't fit below anyway so I'd have to build an extension and.. what I'm saying is the MA drivers will need different cabinets unless I really hack up the Fostex cheapies, and I'm pretty sure I can end up with a decent speaker one way or another using the Fostex drivers in those.
So, step 1 is going to be listening to those, putting in better lining (and bracing if it seems needed), and then trying to come up with a tweeter mod that unambiguously improves the Fostex "kit". I'm pretty sure I can do that, but not at all sure how easily and cheaply. Then I'll move on to the MA drivers.
So, step 1 is going to be listening to those, putting in better lining (and bracing if it seems needed), and then trying to come up with a tweeter mod that unambiguously improves the Fostex "kit". I'm pretty sure I can do that, but not at all sure how easily and cheaply. Then I'll move on to the MA drivers.
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I was just reading back on this thread a bit and felt bad about not thanking you for this very cool offer. I'll try to remember to let you know if I think there's something worth trying.
I set up the FF105WK Thursday to play whatever I'm playing elsewhere at a modest volume (yay technology), and they have been ever since. I was surprised how nice and controlled they sounded at first, really pretty nice except lacking in top octave a bit.
As they run, the normal all-day situation right now is I listen to a very modest JBL LSR2325P nearfield setup during the workday, and when I walk out of the room through the kitchen, there are the Fostex playing the same thing in sync. From this perspective, I think they've actually gotten worse (I cannot stress enough how little stake I put in this, but I know people like subjective reports). Unless I'm totally imagining it, the HF response of these drivers has really opened up, for the worse, and they now sound kind of spitty and resonant in the treble.
I should say, the little experience I have with Fostex FR setups is visiting other nerds' homes when buying gear and trying to be polite about the harsh sounds I heard. I did not keep a log of what those drivers were, but these drivers are MUCH better, aside from not really having any bass in these little BR boxes. They are definitely good enough that the first thing I want to try is DSP EQ alone. Since I know full-range fans tend to be very far from DSP, I'll also try passive speaker-level EQ if I can figure out something reasonable. This/these would then become the benchmark for comparison to a 2-way, IF they seem better than the raw driver.
I meant to do some measurements today, but, well, probably tomorrow I can set it up.
As they run, the normal all-day situation right now is I listen to a very modest JBL LSR2325P nearfield setup during the workday, and when I walk out of the room through the kitchen, there are the Fostex playing the same thing in sync. From this perspective, I think they've actually gotten worse (I cannot stress enough how little stake I put in this, but I know people like subjective reports). Unless I'm totally imagining it, the HF response of these drivers has really opened up, for the worse, and they now sound kind of spitty and resonant in the treble.
I should say, the little experience I have with Fostex FR setups is visiting other nerds' homes when buying gear and trying to be polite about the harsh sounds I heard. I did not keep a log of what those drivers were, but these drivers are MUCH better, aside from not really having any bass in these little BR boxes. They are definitely good enough that the first thing I want to try is DSP EQ alone. Since I know full-range fans tend to be very far from DSP, I'll also try passive speaker-level EQ if I can figure out something reasonable. This/these would then become the benchmark for comparison to a 2-way, IF they seem better than the raw driver.
I meant to do some measurements today, but, well, probably tomorrow I can set it up.
Dumptruck,
If your Mark Audio "metal 7A" shares the same properties as Mark's driver in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/199845-mark-audio-chr-70-gen1-self-destruction-5.html
It will break, rather than break in if run near Xmax 🙂.
A speaker with Xmech only half of it's Xmax was a new one on me.
Art
Yeah, don't worry, I know they have mechanical limits prior to VC xmax and I'll be careful. All I meant by that post is that I hadn't decided if I was going to take before/after measurements. I have taken some Fostex measurements I'll post when I have time.
The new drivers have "built in" arrestors, that limit xmax. That's what the "A" means in the driver designation.
jeff
The Alpair 7 Gen. 3 spec sheet now puts in writing:
"the driver has a SPL of near 86dB while retaining an X-max of +4-mm available for peak non-rhythmic bass loads.
If you see the cone of the speakers making large movements, immediately turn the volume down.
Excessive hard use (over-driving) and other damage caused during customer use is excluded from our warranty."
Still no mention that "large movements" or "excessive hard use" means using the driver at half the rated Xmax, 6 dB less output than one would expect from the rating.
Downgrading the 4.2mm Xmax to 2.1mm, does the driver hit excursion or the 20w Nom.(whatever that means) power limit first ?
I haven't even tried simulating, but I would expect the excursion would be excessive by 20W in bass reflex (assuming significant ~50Hz input).
Okay, clearly I was a little optimistic about getting around to this quickly, but I'm finally going to set up the Fostex for experiments in a few hours here. If anyone has requests for specific measurements/etc., let me know. For tweeters on-hand, I have Dayton ND16FA-6, ND25TA-4, Hivi T20-8, and I suppose some various vintage tweets I could dig up if I feel like it.
Hey guys, it's pretty cold here. Started a new thread for the Fostex efforts.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/248666-fostex-ff105wk-experiments.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/248666-fostex-ff105wk-experiments.html
4.5 inch full range...with optional subs
Hi Dumptruck,
I don't know if this is of any help / interest but if there is any UK guys with your type of full rangers I would be happy to arrange a comparison test in the UK?
I have started a dedicated thread here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/248687-active-dynaudio-bmr-new-post.html
to avoid OT on your thread, I also find the whole full range / two way / thing very interesting...I also am a big fan of line arrays, full-rangers or a two way set up.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Dumptruck,
I don't know if this is of any help / interest but if there is any UK guys with your type of full rangers I would be happy to arrange a comparison test in the UK?
I have started a dedicated thread here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/248687-active-dynaudio-bmr-new-post.html
to avoid OT on your thread, I also find the whole full range / two way / thing very interesting...I also am a big fan of line arrays, full-rangers or a two way set up.
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
I wouldn't take these comments too close to the heart.
There's a very long history on this forum of Jordan bashing and Dave brings up anecdotal examples every time. Follow the money would be my advise.
I've measured a few generations of JX92 drivers as well as a few different MA drivers. I have also build a does systems using either. They all have advantages and disadvantages in comparison to each other. For myself I ended up using 18 JX92 per side in my line arrays.
Fostex drivers on the other hand, I find completely un-listenable. They also measure very poorly. But to each his own I guess.
Funny you should say that. I'm currently playing with some Alpair 7.3 drivers for mid and treble use (dipole, over W-22 "lower-mids") and finding them quite nice. The Fostex drivers that I heard at Burning Amp a couple years ago reminded me of nothing so much as the '40's vintage table radio of my youth. "Un-listenable" is almost too kind . . . I quickly fled the rooms where they were being demo'd.
Just passing on my experience. 3 different sets passed thru here -- kept looking for the magic many find in them,all with the same issue. I personally find any number of the (less expensive) Mark-Audio better.
dave
Well.............
I believe a time aligned 6db crossed 2-way better than any full range driver.
Unless you are listening to 3" drivers an arm's reach away.
A time aligned 6db coax would ideally be best to me.
Crossover parts need to be high quality.
And you'll have more bass, more treble, and better dispersion at higher volumes.
I'll trade that for a hair more transparency any day of the week.
Don't get me wrong, I love full range drivers, I just think they can be beat.
Norman
I believe a time aligned 6db crossed 2-way better than any full range driver.
Unless you are listening to 3" drivers an arm's reach away.
A time aligned 6db coax would ideally be best to me.
Crossover parts need to be high quality.
And you'll have more bass, more treble, and better dispersion at higher volumes.
I'll trade that for a hair more transparency any day of the week.
Don't get me wrong, I love full range drivers, I just think they can be beat.
Norman
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