Hi all,
Firstly, please forgive me if this has been discussed (or beaten to death) elsewhere.
Way back in 2011 I made this post (https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...lrangers-help-me-pick-a-design-please.184703/), looking for recommendations for my second speaker build. I never ended up building anything, but I'm itching to now.
I'm a fan of diyAudio primarily because I believe it allows for a "high value" listening experience without the corresponding cash outlay. To put it more clearly, I am much more into listening to diyAudio than building diyAudio, and I'm hoping I can leverage the incredible experience of those on this forum to help me decide what to build next. Because ideally whatever I build lasts me a good long while!
Can you please recommend full-range enclosure designs (and sub designs if you have recommendations!) which prioritise sound quality, WAF, and which are tolerant of "sub-optimal" room placement? I really like clean, detailed bass with good extension. In fact I would say that bass performance is a little more important than imaging to me, particularly as this setup will often be enjoyed from the adjoining kitchen, or otherwise "not in the sweet spot". Ease of build would be nice too. I'm just looking for a shortlist of enclosure designs that I can exhaustively research on my own hahaha. And maybe some "explain like I'm 5" wisdom on diy subwoofers and integration with a pair of full range speakers. I've done a tiny bit of reading on calibration/REW corrections with a USB mic & DSP... but still have much to learn.
Proposed signal chain:
Tidal - Wiim amp or Wiim streamer into a <$800 DAC + AMP bundle (like SMSL DA9 + SU9n). I want to keep it simple and relatively affordable on the amplification side of things. EQ/DSP would be nice.
Use:
100% music. I listen to (truly) everything, but these days a fair bit of techno, IDM, DnB, deep house, hip hop, motown, jazz, and a little classic rock. Volumes are restrained, I live in a townhome/rowhouse and love my neighbours.
I've been leaning towards the Frugelhorn XL or Joan plus a sub, but wondering if I'm going to run a sub or two if I can get away just fine with the standard Frugelhorn? The Pensil and variants have also caught my eye. In my 2011 post, I was recommended the Castle microtower as well. And how about a sub(s)? What would work best with the full range enclosures you recommend (and isn't too picky about room placement)? Should I run one or two?
-----Boring and long-winded background/history-----
Years ago I built some B0FU BIBs and loved them for 6+ years before they succumbed to a slowly climbing WAF threshold. I drove them with a Sonic Impact T-Amp and ran them both alone as well as with a B&W 10" sub (which I loved, taking a little bass load off helped the BIBs shine even more imo).
Since, I've been using an old pair of cheap Polk bookshelves (driven by the same trusty T-Amp) in conjunction with the same older B&W sub and it's been okay, until my sub decided it'd had enough and packed 'er in.
The signal chain I've been using will make most of you groan. It's been chromecast HDMI - TV - RCA line out - sub (w/ crossover) - RCA-1/8" - T-Amp.
I have a headphone setup at work with a standalone DAC and headphone amp. I used to listen to lossless and high-bitrate rips before I succumbed to laziness and spotify. Spotify has been driving me nuts though, I just tried Tidal and I'm loving it. Now I want to stream high bitrate to my home stereo.
Between determining whether my sub can be repaired or not and switching to Tidal (and hence looking into better streamers than a chromecast plugged into my TV) I started thinking about the entire system. I'm planning to keep the TV paired with my old bookshelves and build a music-only system from scratch, with the goal of bettering the SQ I enjoyed with the BIBs + sub.
-----background history over------
I appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions - mainly I'm looking for a short list to research to death on my own and select a design from.
Thanks a million!
Cheers,
Cam
Firstly, please forgive me if this has been discussed (or beaten to death) elsewhere.
Way back in 2011 I made this post (https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...lrangers-help-me-pick-a-design-please.184703/), looking for recommendations for my second speaker build. I never ended up building anything, but I'm itching to now.
I'm a fan of diyAudio primarily because I believe it allows for a "high value" listening experience without the corresponding cash outlay. To put it more clearly, I am much more into listening to diyAudio than building diyAudio, and I'm hoping I can leverage the incredible experience of those on this forum to help me decide what to build next. Because ideally whatever I build lasts me a good long while!
Can you please recommend full-range enclosure designs (and sub designs if you have recommendations!) which prioritise sound quality, WAF, and which are tolerant of "sub-optimal" room placement? I really like clean, detailed bass with good extension. In fact I would say that bass performance is a little more important than imaging to me, particularly as this setup will often be enjoyed from the adjoining kitchen, or otherwise "not in the sweet spot". Ease of build would be nice too. I'm just looking for a shortlist of enclosure designs that I can exhaustively research on my own hahaha. And maybe some "explain like I'm 5" wisdom on diy subwoofers and integration with a pair of full range speakers. I've done a tiny bit of reading on calibration/REW corrections with a USB mic & DSP... but still have much to learn.
Proposed signal chain:
Tidal - Wiim amp or Wiim streamer into a <$800 DAC + AMP bundle (like SMSL DA9 + SU9n). I want to keep it simple and relatively affordable on the amplification side of things. EQ/DSP would be nice.
Use:
100% music. I listen to (truly) everything, but these days a fair bit of techno, IDM, DnB, deep house, hip hop, motown, jazz, and a little classic rock. Volumes are restrained, I live in a townhome/rowhouse and love my neighbours.
I've been leaning towards the Frugelhorn XL or Joan plus a sub, but wondering if I'm going to run a sub or two if I can get away just fine with the standard Frugelhorn? The Pensil and variants have also caught my eye. In my 2011 post, I was recommended the Castle microtower as well. And how about a sub(s)? What would work best with the full range enclosures you recommend (and isn't too picky about room placement)? Should I run one or two?
-----Boring and long-winded background/history-----
Years ago I built some B0FU BIBs and loved them for 6+ years before they succumbed to a slowly climbing WAF threshold. I drove them with a Sonic Impact T-Amp and ran them both alone as well as with a B&W 10" sub (which I loved, taking a little bass load off helped the BIBs shine even more imo).
Since, I've been using an old pair of cheap Polk bookshelves (driven by the same trusty T-Amp) in conjunction with the same older B&W sub and it's been okay, until my sub decided it'd had enough and packed 'er in.
The signal chain I've been using will make most of you groan. It's been chromecast HDMI - TV - RCA line out - sub (w/ crossover) - RCA-1/8" - T-Amp.
I have a headphone setup at work with a standalone DAC and headphone amp. I used to listen to lossless and high-bitrate rips before I succumbed to laziness and spotify. Spotify has been driving me nuts though, I just tried Tidal and I'm loving it. Now I want to stream high bitrate to my home stereo.
Between determining whether my sub can be repaired or not and switching to Tidal (and hence looking into better streamers than a chromecast plugged into my TV) I started thinking about the entire system. I'm planning to keep the TV paired with my old bookshelves and build a music-only system from scratch, with the goal of bettering the SQ I enjoyed with the BIBs + sub.
-----background history over------
I appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions - mainly I'm looking for a short list to research to death on my own and select a design from.
Thanks a million!
Cheers,
Cam
Sorry, I had to go get some Wild Turkey to get the taste of this out of my mouth, “chromecast HDMI - TV - RCA line out - sub (w/ crossover) - RCA-1/8" - T-Amp”. 🤣
Seriously, I’ve thought a lot about full rangers and subwoofers. I have several full range systems and none of them reach to the bottom octave, so a sub is required. I also have several sets of subwoofers and some monster amps to power them. I don’t know if they reach to the bottom octave all that well but they do provide scale and weight to the music. Low notes need big speakers and a good bit of power. I’ve had nothing but trouble trying to integrate the subs with the main speakers. Who ever said you can’t locate a sub was in the marketing department and never listened to the systems they sell. So, now I have dual stereo subs and things are much better. I still think there is a gap between the mains and the subs. Yes I’ve done all the REW and eq, phase matching etc. My 5” full range doesn’t match my 12” subwoofer no matter what. Actually I enjoy listening to the full rangers on their own at moderate levels. So now what? I’m planning on making a WAW with a woofer that reaches low but isn’t crossed over low, maybe around 300hz. Also, I think it’s difficult to add a sub to a horn system or a T-line, or even a vented system.
Seriously, I’ve thought a lot about full rangers and subwoofers. I have several full range systems and none of them reach to the bottom octave, so a sub is required. I also have several sets of subwoofers and some monster amps to power them. I don’t know if they reach to the bottom octave all that well but they do provide scale and weight to the music. Low notes need big speakers and a good bit of power. I’ve had nothing but trouble trying to integrate the subs with the main speakers. Who ever said you can’t locate a sub was in the marketing department and never listened to the systems they sell. So, now I have dual stereo subs and things are much better. I still think there is a gap between the mains and the subs. Yes I’ve done all the REW and eq, phase matching etc. My 5” full range doesn’t match my 12” subwoofer no matter what. Actually I enjoy listening to the full rangers on their own at moderate levels. So now what? I’m planning on making a WAW with a woofer that reaches low but isn’t crossed over low, maybe around 300hz. Also, I think it’s difficult to add a sub to a horn system or a T-line, or even a vented system.
I did a waw with a fullrange and a woofer, but the fullrange is out of production (Mark Audio Alpair 10.3). The woofer is still availeble and very good, i use a Scanspeak 26W8534G00 in a 77L sealed cabinet. I do cross at 300Hz with a MiniDSP flex today, but i did it passive analog before and it was also good (dsp does it better altough). The trick is indeed to cross a bit higher (250 to 300Hz is the sweetspot i think) but that has as consequence that you can put the sub not under the fullrange speaker (or you got localisation issues).
You can do the same with a modern Mark Audio driver and that woofer i use, or use another woofer. Planet10 also got some designs, and you got the wel documented 10F8424/RS225-8 speaker from XRK971 on this site: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/ that is fully developped, documented and tested.
So there are many ways to do this. Just cross a bit higher than you would do with typical subs to relieve stress from the fullrange. A lot also depends on what you want from it.
But i guess you will want better amps with that. I run mine from Ncrore or tubes for the fullrange and Ncore for the bass mostly (depending on my mood). But a T amp will in general not be enough to drive this. And typical plate amp with filters will also not do it. You need or a good studied and executed passive crossover or dsp. The easiest way will be the one of XRK971 i think as it's design is fully done and it's well documented.
You can do the same with a modern Mark Audio driver and that woofer i use, or use another woofer. Planet10 also got some designs, and you got the wel documented 10F8424/RS225-8 speaker from XRK971 on this site: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/ that is fully developped, documented and tested.
So there are many ways to do this. Just cross a bit higher than you would do with typical subs to relieve stress from the fullrange. A lot also depends on what you want from it.
But i guess you will want better amps with that. I run mine from Ncrore or tubes for the fullrange and Ncore for the bass mostly (depending on my mood). But a T amp will in general not be enough to drive this. And typical plate amp with filters will also not do it. You need or a good studied and executed passive crossover or dsp. The easiest way will be the one of XRK971 i think as it's design is fully done and it's well documented.
Well, there are options.
First, I suggest two subs minimum. It really help dealing with peaks and dips associated with a single sub. Place them asymetrically and play with the phase until you get the best response. Go with 4 if you can! 🙂
Myself, I'm a huge fan of the TABAQ with a 3.5 ~ 4" driver to get a bit more bass. My old ears have trouble hearing past 12~14kHz so it works for me. Those little towers are great for small ensemble, small group and even electronica. The bass can extend to 45Hz (the knee is about 55Hz typically) and they are believable. Being a small cone, they will not render big ensemble music too well. Same with any other 3" or 4" design.
To throw you off, how about the Nola Brio clones? I built a pair with the Visaton B80 and they were fun. They need dual subs to shine. Really fun sound but they need to be off any walls by a meter or two to shine.
Also, not a full range, but the TB W6-2313 coax is absolutely superb. Clear, detailed and can dig a bit low. Can work in a sealed or vented box, and even in a TL/MLTL. The XO is a little tricky but I got one working on their thread and it's sounds really good. Plus, they are quite good looking!
Finally, SBA has a newish 8" full range driver that many people like a lot. Didn't try it yet, but I'm a big fan of SBA's quality at reasonable pricing.
Options, options.... 🙂
First, I suggest two subs minimum. It really help dealing with peaks and dips associated with a single sub. Place them asymetrically and play with the phase until you get the best response. Go with 4 if you can! 🙂
Myself, I'm a huge fan of the TABAQ with a 3.5 ~ 4" driver to get a bit more bass. My old ears have trouble hearing past 12~14kHz so it works for me. Those little towers are great for small ensemble, small group and even electronica. The bass can extend to 45Hz (the knee is about 55Hz typically) and they are believable. Being a small cone, they will not render big ensemble music too well. Same with any other 3" or 4" design.
To throw you off, how about the Nola Brio clones? I built a pair with the Visaton B80 and they were fun. They need dual subs to shine. Really fun sound but they need to be off any walls by a meter or two to shine.
Also, not a full range, but the TB W6-2313 coax is absolutely superb. Clear, detailed and can dig a bit low. Can work in a sealed or vented box, and even in a TL/MLTL. The XO is a little tricky but I got one working on their thread and it's sounds really good. Plus, they are quite good looking!
Finally, SBA has a newish 8" full range driver that many people like a lot. Didn't try it yet, but I'm a big fan of SBA's quality at reasonable pricing.
Options, options.... 🙂
if you need plans for fullrange satellites with perfect development
one with a tang band driver, the other with a 13cm visaton al130
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=9087
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=7846
you can combine with a home cinema amp already doing the filtering and sub extra
one with a tang band driver, the other with a 13cm visaton al130
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=9087
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=7846
you can combine with a home cinema amp already doing the filtering and sub extra
for my part i use for stereo small d amps with integrated adustable sub low pass filter like
zk mt21
just look up in the forum. works nice!
zk mt21
just look up in the forum. works nice!
now looked up. If you go for efficiency Eminence has a nice diy blog with ready made proposals
https://eminence.com/blogs/news/eminence-diy-speaker-plans
the bass is in an unfiltered bandpass. but you could filter it actively or try at least a 10mh inductivity
https://eminence.com/blogs/news/eminence-diy-speaker-plans
the bass is in an unfiltered bandpass. but you could filter it actively or try at least a 10mh inductivity
Hi
I’m in a very similar situation as the OP.
I planned to build a TABAQ with some nice 5” full range I just bought, seems that it could extend to 35Hz (F10)
Will the bass from the TABAQ by itself be sufficient to listen to let’s say some Classic Rock ? Maybe @perceval can answer that question 😀
If I have to add 2 subs or woofers to assist the 5” with the bass, could someone recommend a woofer/sub model and enclosure type that could go well with a TABAQ ? RS225 seems great but is too pricey for me, especially a pair…
Hope I’m not high jacking that thread.
Thanks
Eric
I’m in a very similar situation as the OP.
I planned to build a TABAQ with some nice 5” full range I just bought, seems that it could extend to 35Hz (F10)
Will the bass from the TABAQ by itself be sufficient to listen to let’s say some Classic Rock ? Maybe @perceval can answer that question 😀
If I have to add 2 subs or woofers to assist the 5” with the bass, could someone recommend a woofer/sub model and enclosure type that could go well with a TABAQ ? RS225 seems great but is too pricey for me, especially a pair…
Hope I’m not high jacking that thread.
Thanks
Eric
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I tried the TABAQ large with a TB 5 » driver and I wasn’t a fan.
The TB 5-inch drivers have a tendency to beam quite early.
That line for the 2143 is 209 cm. You will likely need to fold the line if you want the driver near ear level. If driver is not near ear level, you will lose the highs very quickly due to the beaming.
I prefer to look where the knee is, and in this case, the knee is about 45Hz. That’s lower than my usual 4-inch driver, which is about 55Hz. And I have no trouble listening to classic rock with them alone.
If you need rumbling on a Pink Floyd track, or get the lowest note from the foot pedals on a Genesis song, then yes, I suggest subs, with an s, as subs are always better in multiples and placed asymmetrically.
To me, the TABAQ shines with 4 » drivers. Less beaming than a 5 », more meat than a 3 », neat slim towers, and enough bass for most times, according to the size of the room of course.
The TB 5-inch drivers have a tendency to beam quite early.
That line for the 2143 is 209 cm. You will likely need to fold the line if you want the driver near ear level. If driver is not near ear level, you will lose the highs very quickly due to the beaming.
I prefer to look where the knee is, and in this case, the knee is about 45Hz. That’s lower than my usual 4-inch driver, which is about 55Hz. And I have no trouble listening to classic rock with them alone.
If you need rumbling on a Pink Floyd track, or get the lowest note from the foot pedals on a Genesis song, then yes, I suggest subs, with an s, as subs are always better in multiples and placed asymmetrically.
To me, the TABAQ shines with 4 » drivers. Less beaming than a 5 », more meat than a 3 », neat slim towers, and enough bass for most times, according to the size of the room of course.