A LF range of a horn is limited by mouth area and horn length.
Cutting back on either limiting dimension, results in a truncated horn, for the frequency range you require.
Truncated horns perform very badly at their LF range.
Cutting back on either limiting dimension, results in a truncated horn, for the frequency range you require.
Truncated horns perform very badly at their LF range.
Isn't there a big difference between the efficiency produced by the horn and the db produced by the driver acting as a direct radiating driver below the lowest frequency of the horn? i will read the thread as you discribed, i have a jbl design with horn/direct radiator, sure will be usefull!
Yes, if a person goes this route they can go one of two ways: 1) Bi-amp with a bigger amp on the direct radiator 2) Attenuate the horns to match the sensitivity of the direct radiator - kind of defeats the purpose of the horn.
I fully agree. With the size requirements given, it will not be possible to get much lower than 80Hz - 100Hz with a front loaded horn. The only horn solution that will fit below 80Hz is a tapped horn. For the mid bass horn a "J" horn could be built. This would be similar to Bruce Edgar's old System 50. It would need to be scaled down to around a 80Hz horn to fit the size limitations.
Of course time alignment becomes an issue unless DSP is applied to delay the higher frequency horns.
Sad to see it is becoming difficult finding information about the designs from Bruce Edgar.Anybody nows links? I believe the titan was a folded design? For the topic, i can not really follow anymore, what are the suggestions? I have seen a RCA 70 hz folded front loaded horn, a J-horn used as a midbass?
Volvotreter used to use a tractrix midbass cabinet, front loaded to 150 hz, the cabinet was about 60 cm deep so this would fit. It looks a lot like the a7 horn design, almost the same dimensions. Volvotreter used this cabinet on his side, with the flares aiming to the ground, isn't this way of placement bad for the dispersion of the horn? What sub could be placed under the tractrix that will play up to 150 hz?
Volvotreter used to use a tractrix midbass cabinet, front loaded to 150 hz, the cabinet was about 60 cm deep so this would fit. It looks a lot like the a7 horn design, almost the same dimensions. Volvotreter used this cabinet on his side, with the flares aiming to the ground, isn't this way of placement bad for the dispersion of the horn? What sub could be placed under the tractrix that will play up to 150 hz?
80 hz or bust ?
So, the consensus here is, unless one can do a 80Hz mid-bass horn, then just forget the horn approach all together?
I asked about a 150hz horn, so that maybe the size would be okay to in
the OP's residence, AND keep the peace.
So, the consensus here is, unless one can do a 80Hz mid-bass horn, then just forget the horn approach all together?
I asked about a 150hz horn, so that maybe the size would be okay to in
the OP's residence, AND keep the peace.
what sub ?
maybe not exactly a "sub" but, a neat solution is a ppsl under a 150hz horn,
firing frontwards, of course !
maybe not exactly a "sub" but, a neat solution is a ppsl under a 150hz horn,
firing frontwards, of course !
Oliebaron:
Dr. Bruce published numerous articles in Speaker Builder magazine from the mid 1970's to the mid 1990's about horns in general. He has made several folded and front loaded mid bass horn designs over the years but settled on front loaded horns as the best sounding. His personal Titan horn system that I listened to uses a front loaded mid bass horn that measures about 24" square at the mouth and about 32" to 36" deep ( guess ) which goes down to about 80 or 90hz.
Scott L:
There is no hard and fast rule that you must reach 80hz on a front loaded horn. You can do very well with a 90-100z mid bass horn if necessary. It is much easier to add a woofer/subwoofer system and get a good blend below 100hz then above. You want to keep the subwoofer from working into the upper mid bass / low midrange as much as possible. Check out Inlow sound and Volvotreter's site. IMHO their speaker systems are not TOO big especially when you factor in sensitivity and performance.
Dr. Bruce published numerous articles in Speaker Builder magazine from the mid 1970's to the mid 1990's about horns in general. He has made several folded and front loaded mid bass horn designs over the years but settled on front loaded horns as the best sounding. His personal Titan horn system that I listened to uses a front loaded mid bass horn that measures about 24" square at the mouth and about 32" to 36" deep ( guess ) which goes down to about 80 or 90hz.
Scott L:
There is no hard and fast rule that you must reach 80hz on a front loaded horn. You can do very well with a 90-100z mid bass horn if necessary. It is much easier to add a woofer/subwoofer system and get a good blend below 100hz then above. You want to keep the subwoofer from working into the upper mid bass / low midrange as much as possible. Check out Inlow sound and Volvotreter's site. IMHO their speaker systems are not TOO big especially when you factor in sensitivity and performance.
There are two issues with the 150Hz sized horn. 1.) As stated above by Hottattoo, you really don't want the sub playing up into the mid bass. 2.) It will be impossible to make the back chamber small enough on the 421 woofer for reactance annulling. If you want to stick with a 150Hz horn then you'll need a 12" or 10" woofer.
RCA Fan's 70Hz folded horn is not the best of designs. It was specific to a need different than what we are discussing here. It would be better to start from scratch and do a "J" horn or a horn similar to the University Classic/Edgarhorn Titan mid bass horn.
RCA Fan's 70Hz folded horn is not the best of designs. It was specific to a need different than what we are discussing here. It would be better to start from scratch and do a "J" horn or a horn similar to the University Classic/Edgarhorn Titan mid bass horn.
so you think RCA-Fan's little 70Hz horn is too much of a compromise to sound decent -? I've still got Bruce's first System 100 horns plus the "Monolith" but have been using Karlson for years.
The 100 hz or lower straight horn is simply not possible in my home situation. In a perfect situation, i would build a 80 hz midbass horn together with a tapped or folded sub, sadly it is not possible at this time, so i will have to compromise, as many commercial speakers are compromises.
So the solution is not that easy, that is why i need some help and some creative thinking. As i see it, i can build the smaller 150 hz horn (maybe with a different driver), and try to build a horn sub below it that will fit the demands as good as it gets. Otherwise i am thinking about building a folded horn, if possible covering a bigger frequency range or, if not possible just covering the midbass.
I have looked at the klipsch Lascala also, that is a good example of a folded basshorn that reaches from about 60 hz to 400 hz. I now the lascala is a compromised design, i have heard them in real life and found them weak in the bassregion (even worse than the a7) and not really magical in the upper region (because of the folding?) On the other hand, i found the midbass they had reallife and punchy...
So the solution is not that easy, that is why i need some help and some creative thinking. As i see it, i can build the smaller 150 hz horn (maybe with a different driver), and try to build a horn sub below it that will fit the demands as good as it gets. Otherwise i am thinking about building a folded horn, if possible covering a bigger frequency range or, if not possible just covering the midbass.
I have looked at the klipsch Lascala also, that is a good example of a folded basshorn that reaches from about 60 hz to 400 hz. I now the lascala is a compromised design, i have heard them in real life and found them weak in the bassregion (even worse than the a7) and not really magical in the upper region (because of the folding?) On the other hand, i found the midbass they had reallife and punchy...
As i remember Stage Accompany had a mid cabinet called the 4512, front firing, horn loaded down to prox 150-200hz, further down to 80hz by bassreflex.
The horn was made to accept to sorts od drivers, a 12 or 15 inch. I never heard them in real life though, maybe it sounded pretty worse with a 15 inch...😕
ppsl
push-pull, slot load
There's a really long thread about it, right here at the DIY.
My personal thoughts on this design, however, is that it is better served for 150 hz and under.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/177905-thread-those-interested-ppsl-enclosures.html
push-pull, slot load
There's a really long thread about it, right here at the DIY.
My personal thoughts on this design, however, is that it is better served for 150 hz and under.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/177905-thread-those-interested-ppsl-enclosures.html
There is another option that had failed to occur to me until yesterday. You could shorten the straight mid bass horn by using a Paraline at the throat. If you used a B&C Speakers 12PE32 with a Paraline that had a passage way thickness of 5.5 inches (1/4WL at 600Hz) you could shorten the horn by at least 12 to 15 inches. It technically wouldn't be a straight horn anymore, but the Paraline does so little harm it could actually be better than a University Classic style folded horn. Something to think about.
Very interesting! i have already looked at the video from the SBH 10. I will do a search how it works and actually can be made in the right dimensions for my use...i didn't even now of the existence of it!
I just read about the tapped horn's and the synergy horns Tom Danley designed, never about the paraline! I must say, after reading the first things about it on this forum, i have to say i am amazed how wonderful this is!
I will need some time figuring out how the whole paraline system exactly works...🙂
Real nice, i'm like a boy in a toystore!
I will need some time figuring out how the whole paraline system exactly works...🙂
Real nice, i'm like a boy in a toystore!
Bruce Edgar left many posts scattered over various topics in the high efficiency part of Audio Asylum. If you spend some time, you can find plenty of information about his various horns and why he designed them the way he did. I think knowledge has moved on since the articles he did in Speakerbuilder, but he did find out a lot of practical stuff that easily allows the DIY-er to build a good and foolproof horn system. He's a true horn hero.
Oliebaron,
Start reading the Square Pegs thread. It should keep you busy for a while. 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
P.S. I see your location is Belgium. My family is originally from Charleroi.
Start reading the Square Pegs thread. It should keep you busy for a while. 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs.html
P.S. I see your location is Belgium. My family is originally from Charleroi.
I worked out the major parts of a Paraline midbass horn using the B&C Speakers 12PE32 woofer. A straight horn like this would have had an overall length of 113cm (44.5"). With the paraline the overall length shrinks to just 83cm (32.625"). The -6dB points in half space (floor loading only) simulate out from 100Hz to 1180Hz. In real life it will never reach that high. The usable upper limit will be something closer to 650Hz.
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