Full Range for me is now 10,000 Hz & below

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#22
Well said Chrisb! I lost hearing and have Tinnitus as a result of 21 years Naval Aviation Service. The VA compensates me for this, but I would rather have my hearing back. I count my "Lucky Stars", that I can hear and still enjoy music, although at increased volume and alot of tweaking with the equalizer! 🙂

Mac
 
#25
sdep777 said:
My Hearing test revealed that I am unable to hear beyond 10,000 HZ. Actually I could not hear 9,000 HZ either and since Music is said to only go out to about 5,000 HZ and not much of any music will be at 7,000 HZ & above ...................

Then it occurs to me that it is pointless to be limiting my choice of Full Range drivers to those units that only go above 10,000 HZ. This opens up many,many more drivers to choose from to create speaker systems with. and I would guess that I would probably realize as much enjoyment from my speakers at a 9,000 HZ or 10,000 HZ top end as I would if they went out to 15000 HZ & above.

So if anyone is using 5 " or 6.5 " units I would be interested in knowing the drivers you are using.

Steve -
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I did some experiments with Opsodis, where I highpassed a mono tweeter above 5000hz. So I had two midranges in the regular location, and a mono tweeter playing 5khz and up.

I definitely found that the tweeter added a little bit of "air." But I also found that with such a high crossover point, mono wasn't just adequate, it was better.
 
#26
Any time two tones are played together, you get beat frequencies -- side tones that are the sum and difference of the two original tones. The side tones go both ways -- up and down. Beat frequencies from tones above 10kHz will definitely be audible well below 10kHz. Even if your ears only work to 7-8kHz, you will be missing things if your speakers don't go to 15kHz or so.

Bob
 
#27
wesayso said:
With sine waves I couldn't get past 14000 Hz... but I once tried warble tones instead of pure sine wave and that showed me I could even hear out to 17000 Hz that way...
So don't give up on the high parts yet, you could still benefit from it.
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Off topic, I know. Your David Lee Roth avatar has always cracked me up. Been meaning to compliment you on it for a long time.
 
#30
chrisb said:
well, there's this no longer top secret, 200yr old Amish recipe, the formula for which is available for a measly $44 -Reverse Hearing Loss

but wait, if you order today, we'll include this set of Ginsu steak knives and bamboo cutting board for no extra charge!
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Thanks chrisb. This is the first thread I've seen where the inmates are offering weird opinions on stuff besides tapped horns. When you are speculating in free air, just say, "Well, I guess, maybe....."

What the folks at Bell Labs were doing, if I can make any sense of an earlier post, was establishing what kind range you need to understand speech esp on a phone.

Another line of mis-thought relates to what makes a good range. In days of yore, we used the "400,000 rule" where you multiply lowest by highest. No kidding, a lot of merit. A system with strong bass but lousy treble sounds poor and vice versa. So oddly important to keep that kind of balance in mind even I can't think of any theoretical reason why.

It is a simple matter - in theory - to test how low and high you need to go to have satisfying sound. If you have a DSP, piece if cake to set up the test at the press of a button. I do a lot of mic testing and have helpful little LEDs on my gear so I have some knowledge of the truth as it applies to my elderly hearing. Your choice of music as well as your esthetics ("natural" versus "cooked" sound) matter, of course. For me, I'd be sad not to hear the unique metallic high-frequency ring of the orchestral anvil (no kidding) in Holst's Band Suite, track 6.

Without a doubt, a speaker that did well down to 40 would make almost everybody happy. Treble is a bit different since the octaves are so big but if your driver pooped out above 10kHz or so, nobody would ever complain, I'd guess, maybe.

Ben
 
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#31
gee Ben, not entirely sure how to take all of that

While I know that my hearing is not what it once was - certainly in that highest octave, I think I can still "appreciate" - as in perceive / detect - the difference between systems with response extended that high, and certainly sense something's missing when it's absent - call it "air" / "ambiance" , or if you like, self deception.

An observation re choice of music, aesthetics, and as Dr Gizmo (Harvey Rosenberg *dearly missed he is) - was wont to say, my individual "aural matrix":

I listen to NPR - the local affiliate (KPLU) has extensive programming of Jazz and Blues, including an absolutely fabulous weekly feature by Ken Wiley - the Art of Jazz - using his own personal collection that includes every format I've ever heard of . Some of these must be 80yrs old, and it's pretty bloody obvious what's missing in terms of FR extension, dynamic range, noise floor, etc etc - BUT when the playing is right - WOW - to me the magic intended by the voluntary suspension of disbelief entailed listening to any audio system - even a fricking car radio - is met.

The best example of a recent driveway moment was Benny Goodman's Sing Sing Sing - 1936 or thereabouts. Listening to that or Cab Calloway, Loius Prima, Louis Armstrong, etc often make me think I was born 25yrs too late.



* Harvey's take on the male human brain

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Nobody said that chris guy would make any sense or be consistent
 
#32
chrisb said:
Some of these must be 80yrs old, and it's pretty bloody obvious what's missing in terms of FR extension, dynamic range, noise floor, etc etc - BUT when the playing is right - WOW - to me the magic intended by the voluntary suspension of disbelief entailed listening to any audio system - even a fricking car radio - is met.
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Actually, pretty hard to establish a phenomenological test that's meaningful (look up "El Greco fallacy") but you've suggested a good test.

Of course, other differences in old versus new recordings besides range. But more important, you haven't nailed down the acoustic side: just what is the enlargement of range in the newer recordings?

Canny use of a DSP (which I think nobody should be without today, even I am just a recent convert) can provide the test.

BTW, I've spent bucks to receive Buffalo PBS HD-FM (Ibiquity). While kind of inexact what the additional transmission benefits are, it does provide an illustrative test of whether your ears and your system are digesting that improvement of sound quality. Pity so much of FM is now MP3 quality.

Thanks for funny brain scan.

Ben
 
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#33
sdep777 said:
My Hearing test revealed that I am unable to hear beyond 10,000 HZ. Actually I could not hear 9,000 HZ either and since Music is said to only go out to about 5,000 HZ and not much of any music will be at 7,000 HZ & above ...................

Then it occurs to me that it is pointless to be limiting my choice of Full Range drivers to those units that only go above 10,000 HZ. This opens up many,many more drivers to choose from to create speaker systems with. and I would guess that I would probably realize as much enjoyment from my speakers at a 9,000 HZ or 10,000 HZ top end as I would if they went out to 15000 HZ & above.

So if anyone is using 5 " or 6.5 " units I would be interested in knowing the drivers you are using.

Steve -
Click to expand...
The upper harmonics above 10Khz have a effect on the lower freq that the human brain associates to sound quality.
 
#34
ben, the point that I think I failed to make in my rambling prior post (gee, chris, which one, specifically?) was that for me the WOW factor is an emotional connection to what I suspect/ hope was the intention of the composer / artists that is able to transcend the technical shortcomings of the recording /playback processes / media

not "they are here", but "you wish you were there" - in the case of the Benny Goodman, man could those guys play - I want to imagine my mom jitterbugging (or whatever was the current vogue) to that in the clubs


About the discernible difference in quality of source format, once & while KPLU will play a late 70s or early 80s recording from their vinyl collection, and some are clean enough of surface noise to not give it away immediately, but you suspect something's different, and when announced after playing you can't help but smile.


anyways, enough BS from me for now
 
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#35
I find much of the discussion here very surprising. In the past I have not considered myself to have particularly good hearing. I'm a 45 yo male with tinnitus, and my left ear is slightly less sensitive than my right (due to shooting rifles without hearing protection sometimes) but I can hear test tones well into the 15k range (last time I checked).

Is this odd? By the sounds of the discussion, I should consider myself lucky (?)
 
#38
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