Hey guys. I’m currently in the process of building a full range cabinet using the b&c dcx464 coax with the 18 sound XTI 1464 and the b&c 15sw115 4 ohm. This cabinet will be a replacement of my current jbl srx835p. I want the size and weight to be similar to the jbl srx835p being that these would be use for smaller gigs. Reason why I’m changing is I need more output than what my current speaker can achieve while also maintaining better sound quality. Regarding the cabinet design I was originally thinking of doing a simple bass reflex enclosure. Would this be the best option given the space and weight limitations but also given that it needs to be crossed over to the b&c dcx464 somewhere along the lines of 600hz? Thanks
Moved to Multi-Way.
Michael,
A bass reflex cabinet would be the smallest/lightest cabinet solution.
The B&C 15SW115 has more excursion potential than the SRX835P's woofer, so a bit more low frequency output is available if you use the same net volume and Fb (box tuning) as the SRX835P enclosure.
Regarding sound quality, the 15SW115 run near it's 13mm Xmax to 600Hz and the DCX464 on a horn designed for use above 800 probably won't sound as good in the midrange as the dedicated JBL mid running 330-2400 Hz.
From a ease of set up and sound quality standpoint, separate sub cabinet(s) with a lightweight pole mounted 10"-12"/HF horn driver running >100Hz would be far better.
Also, for small gigs, generally wider dispersion than 60 degrees would be desirable.
Cheers,
Art
Hey art
Thanks for your constructive feedback. Which horn would you recommend for a wider coverage? I’m surprised on the sound quality statement that you made regarding the dedicated mid range. I thought that the b&c dcx464 above 600hz was pretty much unbeatable from a quality standpoint? Otherwise I could maybe build something like the pm90. Would that sound better than the jbl srx835p? And as far as output how much more do you think I’ll be able to get if I was only doing the dcx464 with the b&c 15sw115? As for the horn, the 18 sound XTI 1464 it’s rated to have a cutoff at 500hz, is that not good enough? Otherwise I could possibly do a 3 way like the jbl? All in all i already have the dcx464, but have not bought the rest yet. what would be the holly grail as far as sound quality output given the size limitation of the cabinet and that i want it play full range if needed but than could be high passed when used in conjunction with other subs?
thanks
Michael
Hi again
What if the top section was turned into a synergy horn and at the bottom the 15 inch woofer in a reflex enclosure for lower extension. Could add something like 2 6inch midrange inside the horn? Do you know how big the mouth will have to be?
thanks
Horn mouth size is proportional to the wavelength of the low frequency pattern control desired.
Horn cutoff and pattern control represent different issues.
Read the SynTripP original post, then from around post #999, pay special attention to Mark100 through to post 1011, he has direct experience with the DCX464 on a variety of horns:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...rtual-single-point-source-horn.264485/page-50
Take two aspirin, I'll check in tomorrow..
Art
You need a larger horn to make this cab idea work. But if you are using subs you would be better off using multiple lighter higher sensitivity 15" (or 10"/12" drivers) the SW has a long voice coil to get high excursion which is means that much of the coil doesn't sit in the magnet gap reducing sensitivity, if your box is never run low you don't need this excursion. This is an example of a box using a coaxial compression driver: https://soundforums.net/community/threads/new-diy-mid-high-90deg-aka-pm90.11601/ it uses a horn that loads lower and two horn loaded 12".
this is a more low mid/mid optimized 15": https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/15-0/8/15nw76 two per cab would be very loud, if you loaded them in a unconventional way the box could still be a simlar size to the JBL.
Hi. I agree that for the speaker to work I’ll have to have a bigger horn. As for the b&c 15nw76, I already have a pair of those and another 6 on there way. They are very loud I agree. They will be used in a horn loaded design, so 4 per side with my new redesigned horn for the bms4599he that Troy Joseph Crowe is working on. But now for the smaller gigs I need something that is easy to carry and that could work on a full range for let’s say 100-200 people, but than when high passed with other subs could do 300-1000 people approximately. I really don’t mind replacing the b&c 15sw115 as it’s extremely expensive. Maybe 2 12 could offer more output in the upper frequencies while having decent output down low? From what I’ve heard from Joseph’s own test regarding distortion and spl, he recommended me to not crossed the dcx464 lower than 600hz. How low do you think I’ll be able to get if I loaded 2 b&c 15nw76 like the above picture?
The pioneer datasheet for the bass section states -10dB @ 55 Hz, using 12" drivers (which look suspiciously like B&C) (datasheet attached), so to get full range performance from such a design the box would probably become unacceptably large. If your constrained by box dimensions to a single bass driver it could be the SW is the best choice but this depends on what frequency range you consider full range (as sensitivity is traded for excursion). Its also worth considering using a mid driver as weltersys suggests as this would allow higher midrange efficiency and better driver spacing along with sound quality improvements. If you have the capability to make shallow mid horns as the JBL uses they still offer considerable efficiency improvements: https://www.limmerhorns.de/870/ . An issue with verticaly stacked drivers like a conventional 2*12" design is that to avoid a very narrow vertical directivity at 600Hz you would realy want to run the lower driver with an additional amp+dsp channel to low pass filter the lower driver at a lower frequency, wherupon you may as well use dissimlar drivers for more efficiency in their operating band.
As a kind of wild card suggestion B&C have exceptionally light 10" drivers now ( https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/10-0/8/10cla64-8 ) only 2kg! perhaps 4 of these in a V shaped baffle, bass reflex loaded with a coaxial mounted horn would work? (arrangement a bit like the Meyer sound ultra X20)
As a kind of wild card suggestion B&C have exceptionally light 10" drivers now ( https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/10-0/8/10cla64-8 ) only 2kg! perhaps 4 of these in a V shaped baffle, bass reflex loaded with a coaxial mounted horn would work? (arrangement a bit like the Meyer sound ultra X20)
these are great suggestions for sure. The least expensive option would be 2 12 like the pm90 but that certainly won’t be able to produce any kind of low end. The three way is also a viable option. The limmer horn 870 really intrigues me. But the problem is finding a suitable horn for the b&c dcx464 that matches with the limmer horn. Any suggestions? As far as cabinet size and weight I suspect that it be would pretty similar given that I’ll be using an external amp and processor, not like the srx835p. At this point I’m considering just keeping the srx835p for very small events and making a cab for the dcx464 for medium events that will be used with subwoofers? Out of three options; 4 way cabinet with limmer horn (most expensive option ), 3 way only the b&c dcx464 with the b&c 15sw115, and finally the pm90. Which of these options would you choose?
Hi Michael, as Art mentioned, I've used the dcx464 with a variety of horns and different xover frequencies.
I think you will be fine with the 15" ported....
I'd probably choose the xover freq that best blends the 15"s narrowing pattern, with the XT1464's expanding pattern.
And I'd be happy using the dcx down to 600Hz....you might/probably get a little better sound crossing higher, but i'd still choose smooth pattern control first.
Are you planning on using 2 per side for gigs, like i'm thinking you might have been doing with the srx835p's ?
I found the xt1464 tight packs with smooth coverage, using a trap box that would make a 40 degree wedge if it extended all the way backwards to a point.
If only I per side, the rcf 950 horn used in the PM90 might be a better choice.
I think you will be fine with the 15" ported....
I'd probably choose the xover freq that best blends the 15"s narrowing pattern, with the XT1464's expanding pattern.
And I'd be happy using the dcx down to 600Hz....you might/probably get a little better sound crossing higher, but i'd still choose smooth pattern control first.
Are you planning on using 2 per side for gigs, like i'm thinking you might have been doing with the srx835p's ?
I found the xt1464 tight packs with smooth coverage, using a trap box that would make a 40 degree wedge if it extended all the way backwards to a point.
If only I per side, the rcf 950 horn used in the PM90 might be a better choice.
Hi again, I like the keep the srx835 for smaller events idea.
As for 3-way b&c vs PM90, i guess for me it would come down again, to am I planning one per side or two?
I think two 3-way trap boxes can cover more seamlessly than two PM60's (with xt1464) splayed together....but i don't know that for a fact.
Probably only one per side as for bigger gigs I’m using a totally different monster. The bms4599he. But I do plan on also using these cabs as side fills and front fills for larger events.
Do you have any idea how much louder would the 4 way cabinet be using the limmer horn than my jbl srx on a high pass?
5 ciare ct440 in a Bessel array configuration and 4 b&c 15nw76. It’s still under construction. Troy Joseph’s Crowe is working on the design part. I might end up with two bms4599he per side so two horns with 10 ciare ct440, so 2 Bessel array of 5 pointing in different directions for optimal coverage. That would be per side.
I’ve also had someone design me a bandpass horn using the new eminence 21. I’ve ordered 4 for now. Should have them pretty soon. But I plan on having somewhere around 20 of those to keep up.
Also forgot to mention that the b&c 15nw76 will used in horn. Probably a bent horn.
After further research I have come to the conclusion that I will keep my srx835p for very small events and use the pm90 for bigger events crossed over to subwoofers. which 12 inch driver would you recommend? I am able to get some decent price reductions on b&c products. So something like 2 b&c 12nw76 could be good enough? Otherwise Peter also mention The rcf MB12N405, which seems to have a higher power handling. Which one would you chose?
Thanks
Michael,
Didn't Peter use the RCF MB12N351?
Post #49
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/new-diy-mid-high-90deg-aka-pm90.11601/page-3
"I modelled every suitable driver I could find during my research in Hornresp. To get the box to go down to 100Hz and still maintain a reasonable size enclosure required the horn to be ported at around 85Hz. I would have preferred to use a pure horn and not to port the box, but without it, the box became too big." 12n351- RCF 12 inch.
IIRC, the fit is very tight, the b&c12nw76 is 147mm deep, the MB12N351 is only 118mm.
The b&c12nw76 has a bit of an excursion advantage, but it's other parameters may not be as well suited to the box, a Hornresp comparison would show you whats up.
Art
Didn't Peter use the RCF MB12N351?
Post #49
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/new-diy-mid-high-90deg-aka-pm90.11601/page-3
"I modelled every suitable driver I could find during my research in Hornresp. To get the box to go down to 100Hz and still maintain a reasonable size enclosure required the horn to be ported at around 85Hz. I would have preferred to use a pure horn and not to port the box, but without it, the box became too big." 12n351- RCF 12 inch.
IIRC, the fit is very tight, the b&c12nw76 is 147mm deep, the MB12N351 is only 118mm.
The b&c12nw76 has a bit of an excursion advantage, but it's other parameters may not be as well suited to the box, a Hornresp comparison would show you whats up.
Art
Hey Art.
That makes sense.
But if I remember correctly he did mention that the rcf MB12N405 could be used also. The only thing is that it would make the box a bit more heavy but that wouldn’t really be an issue.