I thought the beer would get your attention...
Chris (chuyler1) and I are getting together this Sunday afternoon at my house to compare DIY horns. We will have Frugelhorns with FE126eN's, Bugelhorns with stock FE108EZ's, Little Big Horns with modded FE126E's, Pretty Big Horns with modded FX120's and perhaps an exchangeable baffle with FE166E's for my Pretties.
If there is anyone else in the Boston area (actually west of Boston ~25 miles: Ashland) who would like to join us, with or without speakers, you are most welcome. I will even supply the beer!
PM me for directions.
Denis
Chris (chuyler1) and I are getting together this Sunday afternoon at my house to compare DIY horns. We will have Frugelhorns with FE126eN's, Bugelhorns with stock FE108EZ's, Little Big Horns with modded FE126E's, Pretty Big Horns with modded FX120's and perhaps an exchangeable baffle with FE166E's for my Pretties.
If there is anyone else in the Boston area (actually west of Boston ~25 miles: Ashland) who would like to join us, with or without speakers, you are most welcome. I will even supply the beer!
PM me for directions.
Denis
bump!
Denis, I'll pack up my Behringer EMC8000 mic too. Not sure what you were using for your tests.
Denis, I'll pack up my Behringer EMC8000 mic too. Not sure what you were using for your tests.
Yes, sounds like a fun time ahead. Currently using "Frugels" w/126's En myself.
Looking forward to peoples impressions.
Don
Looking forward to peoples impressions.
Don
chrisb said:
Good advice.
Chris - Could you bring your T-amp also? I would like to be able to try some level matched comparisons.
The lineup (from left to right in the picture in my previous post:
1. Pretty Big Horn with stock FX120 (about 20hours on driver)
2. Frugel horn with about 300 hours total on FE126eN
3. Bugelhorn with FE108EZ with about 25 hours
4. Little Big Horn with modded FE126 (trifoil and Mod Podge but no eNable pattern) and about 50 hours on driver.
5. Exchangeable Pretty Big Horn Baffles with stock FE166E and about 20 hours on driver.
1. Pretty Big Horn with stock FX120 (about 20hours on driver)
2. Frugel horn with about 300 hours total on FE126eN
3. Bugelhorn with FE108EZ with about 25 hours
4. Little Big Horn with modded FE126 (trifoil and Mod Podge but no eNable pattern) and about 50 hours on driver.
5. Exchangeable Pretty Big Horn Baffles with stock FE166E and about 20 hours on driver.
Thanks for having me over Denis, I had a great time! For those who have been waiting patiently for results, I'll see if I can sum up what I heard today.
Hightlights:
The Frugel with FE126eN was the clear winner in the treble department. There was no mistake that it outshines anything else we listened to when it comes to top end detail. Denis' FE126 with only stage 1 treatment was still a bit harsh. They only had about 25 hrs of play on them so that may contribute to some of what we were hearing.
The "Pretty Big Horn" was the clear winner in the bass department but no surprise there having a larger driver and overall larger size. The frugels could not compete, even when placed optimally in the corners.
Frugels (FE126eN) vs "Little Big Horn" (FE126)
The bass on both of these speakers was very similar and the biggest issue for both was room placement. Which ever one was in the corner sounded better when it came to bass. Oddly, the treble was also effected by room placement and the speakers in the corners had a wider and brighter sound stage. The mids sounded very different on each but it was difficult to decypher what the difference was. The non-enabled drivers in the LBH had a harshness that was promenent in female vocals and a slight bite to the attacks on alto sax. The enabled drivers were more mellow in this regard and I thought slightly more enjoyable to listen to. I could see how classical music might come through with more detail on the untreated drivers, but for vocals and rock music the eNabled drivers are my pick for long listening sessions.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Bugelhorn" (FE108E∑)
When comparing the 108 to the FE126eN the obvious difference right away is that the 108's treble rolls off significantly. I feel Denis' bugelhorn cabinet did a better job producing bass regardless of location but both cabinets did better in the corner. If you want more bass, the bugelhorn is the better choice, however the bass seemed more separated from the rest of the music. I pictured the bass player with his back to the audience while the rest of the band was up front and facing us. The Frugels on the other hand blended the bass coming from the rear better with the output from the front. At this point in our listening test, soundstage became a big topic. We didn't notice much difference when comparing different versions of the FE126 but now with the 108 in the mix we could open the discussion. I pictured it like so, The Frugels put me in the front row, with the musicians roughly as far away as the speakers. The Bugelhorns put me in the back row of the auditorium...where you would expect the highs to be subdued and the bass to ring a little more. Imaging was better sitting in the back of the auditorium as musicians were laid out better between the speakers while in the front row some of them were sort of omnipresent...possibly how it might sound if you were only feet from Wynton Marsalis as he rips through A Portrait of Louis Armstrong.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Pretty Big Horn" (FE166E)
The lack of bass from the frugels was now becoming more obvious now that we stepped up to the larger driver and larger cabinet. The Pretty Big Horn produces very tight and accurate bass while the treble was a further step in the direction started by the FE108E∑. Switching back and forth was like turning on the bass and turning off the treble. Imaging was still cleaner with the bigger drivers and I still heard the frugels as "front row listening". I'm not sure I would be happy listening to the FE166Es with most music. I think they would be fine for rock music but anything else would require some sort of tweeter to take care of the lack of highs...or perhaps we just needed to reduce the amount of bass produced by the horn loading.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Pretty Big Horn" (FX120)
The FX120 brought some more highs back compared to the FE166E and also tightened up the bass. The soundstage remained the same as if we were sitting in one of the back rows but the detail was coming through a little clearer than with the FE166E. Switching back and forth between the pretty big horn and frugels was more of the same "where did the bass go?" and "wow, someone just upgraded me to the front row!".
Conclusion...
I am definitely a believer in the eNabled process after this listening session...it allows the FE126 to compete with the other drivers without becoming too overbearing. All of these setups sounded good and none of them exhibited boomy bass or unpleasant mids or highs. My personal preference is to be sitting front row to the music so I enjoyed listening to my frugels a little more than the other drivers, but I also appreciated the more precise imaging that the FE108E∑ created, I just wish it didn't dial back the highs so much to accomplish it. The bigger drivers provide bigger bass but I feel they'd require a tweeter to keep up with the detail of the FE126eN.
My preference leans toward the frugels because of the enabled drivers and engaging listening experience. The bass was transparent but also lacking, but I'd rather have transparent bass than obvious augmentation. However, if I heard Denis' bugelhorns with a pair of enabled drivers I might be convinced otherwise.
From inside to outside...
Little Big Horn (FE126)
Bugelhorn (FE108E∑)
Frugelhorn (FE126en)
Pretty Big Horn (FX120 (FE166 baffles in center)
Hightlights:
The Frugel with FE126eN was the clear winner in the treble department. There was no mistake that it outshines anything else we listened to when it comes to top end detail. Denis' FE126 with only stage 1 treatment was still a bit harsh. They only had about 25 hrs of play on them so that may contribute to some of what we were hearing.
The "Pretty Big Horn" was the clear winner in the bass department but no surprise there having a larger driver and overall larger size. The frugels could not compete, even when placed optimally in the corners.
Frugels (FE126eN) vs "Little Big Horn" (FE126)
The bass on both of these speakers was very similar and the biggest issue for both was room placement. Which ever one was in the corner sounded better when it came to bass. Oddly, the treble was also effected by room placement and the speakers in the corners had a wider and brighter sound stage. The mids sounded very different on each but it was difficult to decypher what the difference was. The non-enabled drivers in the LBH had a harshness that was promenent in female vocals and a slight bite to the attacks on alto sax. The enabled drivers were more mellow in this regard and I thought slightly more enjoyable to listen to. I could see how classical music might come through with more detail on the untreated drivers, but for vocals and rock music the eNabled drivers are my pick for long listening sessions.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Bugelhorn" (FE108E∑)
When comparing the 108 to the FE126eN the obvious difference right away is that the 108's treble rolls off significantly. I feel Denis' bugelhorn cabinet did a better job producing bass regardless of location but both cabinets did better in the corner. If you want more bass, the bugelhorn is the better choice, however the bass seemed more separated from the rest of the music. I pictured the bass player with his back to the audience while the rest of the band was up front and facing us. The Frugels on the other hand blended the bass coming from the rear better with the output from the front. At this point in our listening test, soundstage became a big topic. We didn't notice much difference when comparing different versions of the FE126 but now with the 108 in the mix we could open the discussion. I pictured it like so, The Frugels put me in the front row, with the musicians roughly as far away as the speakers. The Bugelhorns put me in the back row of the auditorium...where you would expect the highs to be subdued and the bass to ring a little more. Imaging was better sitting in the back of the auditorium as musicians were laid out better between the speakers while in the front row some of them were sort of omnipresent...possibly how it might sound if you were only feet from Wynton Marsalis as he rips through A Portrait of Louis Armstrong.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Pretty Big Horn" (FE166E)
The lack of bass from the frugels was now becoming more obvious now that we stepped up to the larger driver and larger cabinet. The Pretty Big Horn produces very tight and accurate bass while the treble was a further step in the direction started by the FE108E∑. Switching back and forth was like turning on the bass and turning off the treble. Imaging was still cleaner with the bigger drivers and I still heard the frugels as "front row listening". I'm not sure I would be happy listening to the FE166Es with most music. I think they would be fine for rock music but anything else would require some sort of tweeter to take care of the lack of highs...or perhaps we just needed to reduce the amount of bass produced by the horn loading.
Frugels (FE126en) vs "Pretty Big Horn" (FX120)
The FX120 brought some more highs back compared to the FE166E and also tightened up the bass. The soundstage remained the same as if we were sitting in one of the back rows but the detail was coming through a little clearer than with the FE166E. Switching back and forth between the pretty big horn and frugels was more of the same "where did the bass go?" and "wow, someone just upgraded me to the front row!".
Conclusion...
I am definitely a believer in the eNabled process after this listening session...it allows the FE126 to compete with the other drivers without becoming too overbearing. All of these setups sounded good and none of them exhibited boomy bass or unpleasant mids or highs. My personal preference is to be sitting front row to the music so I enjoyed listening to my frugels a little more than the other drivers, but I also appreciated the more precise imaging that the FE108E∑ created, I just wish it didn't dial back the highs so much to accomplish it. The bigger drivers provide bigger bass but I feel they'd require a tweeter to keep up with the detail of the FE126eN.
My preference leans toward the frugels because of the enabled drivers and engaging listening experience. The bass was transparent but also lacking, but I'd rather have transparent bass than obvious augmentation. However, if I heard Denis' bugelhorns with a pair of enabled drivers I might be convinced otherwise.
From inside to outside...
Little Big Horn (FE126)
Bugelhorn (FE108E∑)
Frugelhorn (FE126en)
Pretty Big Horn (FX120 (FE166 baffles in center)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
We compared everything against the Frugelhorns. There were lots possible combinations of speakers, drivers and positions. We did not come close to trying them all but we did try to give everyone a fair shot. Here are some quick opinions:
I think none of the speakers revealed themselves to be stinkers. The Frugels, with the well broken in eN FE126, held up amazingly well and I think Rich may have preferred them overall by a hair. In my opinion, I like the PBHs with the FE166E or the FX120's a little better.
Treble - Frugelhorn wre first. I'll defer to Chris for more in depth analysis since his ears are 30 years younger than mine. Even to my ears, it was obvious the Frugels had more highs than any of the other speakers. The FE126Es in the LBHs are a little "screechy" on some woman's voices. I'm not sure how much this will improve with age. I'm considering swapping the FE108EZ into the LBHs.
Bass - Pretty Big Horn with FX120. I think we both agree it had more, tight bass. Chris thought it may have been a little too much bass but I thought it was pretty good as is. We didn't have time to play around with positioning/stuffing. Second place; Pretty big horn with FE166Es. Not really a fair comparison as the PBH's are twice the size of Frugels, but life is not fair.
Imaging - The big surprise to me is how well the FE166E's in the PBHs imaged. I think Rich may have liked certain aspects of the Frugel in certain circumstances but it seemed to me that the PBH's had an advantage overall.
I just read Chris's impressions before posting this and I think we are pretty consistent with allowances for personal preferences. It was a fun way to spend the afternoon!
Denis
I think none of the speakers revealed themselves to be stinkers. The Frugels, with the well broken in eN FE126, held up amazingly well and I think Rich may have preferred them overall by a hair. In my opinion, I like the PBHs with the FE166E or the FX120's a little better.
Treble - Frugelhorn wre first. I'll defer to Chris for more in depth analysis since his ears are 30 years younger than mine. Even to my ears, it was obvious the Frugels had more highs than any of the other speakers. The FE126Es in the LBHs are a little "screechy" on some woman's voices. I'm not sure how much this will improve with age. I'm considering swapping the FE108EZ into the LBHs.
Bass - Pretty Big Horn with FX120. I think we both agree it had more, tight bass. Chris thought it may have been a little too much bass but I thought it was pretty good as is. We didn't have time to play around with positioning/stuffing. Second place; Pretty big horn with FE166Es. Not really a fair comparison as the PBH's are twice the size of Frugels, but life is not fair.
Imaging - The big surprise to me is how well the FE166E's in the PBHs imaged. I think Rich may have liked certain aspects of the Frugel in certain circumstances but it seemed to me that the PBH's had an advantage overall.
I just read Chris's impressions before posting this and I think we are pretty consistent with allowances for personal preferences. It was a fun way to spend the afternoon!
Denis
Thanx guys. With the Frugel-Horns another probably half an octave on the bottom is available with deflectors, and a lot more then that if the deflectors are actually stealthWoofers (tm)
dave
dave
Thanks for your impressions!
The En treatment really does bring the 126's to a more refined level of performance in the "Frugels"
Did you stick to one amp while listening, or?
Don
The En treatment really does bring the 126's to a more refined level of performance in the "Frugels"
Did you stick to one amp while listening, or?
Don
Wow, guys, thank you for the detailed results. Would you say that the Pretty Big Horn with the FE166E also had "tight" bass? Less quantity perhaps than the FX120 but similar in quality?
Doorman, I too am interested in which amp!
Doorman, I too am interested in which amp!
We spent the whole afternoon listening with the amplifier in the Marantz receiver you can see in the center of the picture. Maybe not the ideal amplifier but it was just too convenient to be able to switch between two sets of speakers by pressing a couple of buttons.
WRT PBH bass. I think the bass of the FE166E was similar to that from the FX120. I had to switch out baffle boards to switch drivers so there was no quick A/B comparison. I might still pick the FX120 but it could easily go the other way if imaging is of prime importance.
WRT PBH bass. I think the bass of the FE166E was similar to that from the FX120. I had to switch out baffle boards to switch drivers so there was no quick A/B comparison. I might still pick the FX120 but it could easily go the other way if imaging is of prime importance.
I agree with Denis in that it was tough to really compare A/B the FX120 and FE166E since they were in the same cabinet, however my ears seemed to think the FX120 produced tighter bass and more prominent highs. Of course I could be totally wrong because there was a good 15 minutes in between listening to the two. I was really amazed at how both large drivers imaged so precisely.
I do prefer the up-front listening experience of the frugels with FE126eN overall but given the choice of the rest of the selections, I'd probably lean toward the FX120 in the PBH because all the other options besided the FE126 had more subdued highs and given the option, I might as well have some more bass. It can always be detuned with some stuffing if necessary.
If we meet again, I hope to have some more options to play around with, including some deflectors for the frugels 🙂
I do prefer the up-front listening experience of the frugels with FE126eN overall but given the choice of the rest of the selections, I'd probably lean toward the FX120 in the PBH because all the other options besided the FE126 had more subdued highs and given the option, I might as well have some more bass. It can always be detuned with some stuffing if necessary.
If we meet again, I hope to have some more options to play around with, including some deflectors for the frugels 🙂
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