oh yeah...
scott g, I agree with you about the upper mids magic from mouth stuffing.
I beleive it is caused from an effect of mechanical damping slightly within the horn mouth.
then there is also an effect I like to call dynamic masking (psychological)..
scott g, I agree with you about the upper mids magic from mouth stuffing.
I beleive it is caused from an effect of mechanical damping slightly within the horn mouth.
then there is also an effect I like to call dynamic masking (psychological)..
Fostex 206ES-R
Hi Mike, I found your thread from" 206ESR first impressions"
first, Nice job with the cabinets they look very nice indeed!
As for the sound and all the tweeks you are doing I must agree strongly with mister Blumenstein's comments. When I first built the 166ES-R I too found several anomolies in their frequency response. After more than year of trial and error lsitening tests, etc etc. I must tell you that I've gone full circle.
Here is a picture of my finished speaker http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/id1.html
Let me share with you some of my conclusions to overall performance. Firstly lets make sure that we agree that these drivers need at least 600-1000 hours of play time before they settle in. Thats not a typo I really mean 600-1000 hours of play.
Second, do not try to contour the response before this break-in period by adding polyfill to the CC. I did this in the beginning and it ruined the speaker. Listen, the men who designed this enclosure knew what they were doing and they intended for the CC to be open. That doesn't mean you can't control reflections by placing 1/8 in wool felt on the back and bottom of the CC but filling the CC with poly fill changes the volume of the CC and that's a no no.
For me I settled on reducing the cc volume by about 1/4 using sand bags. This controlled the bass response without mucking up the midrange. Dampening the basket and the face of the magnet are both fine, but the big change will come with adequit break-in. Before I hit 500 hours I thought I had some broken speakers and I was very unhappy. But at about 550 hours the highs stared to really smooth out by 6 to 700 hours they were starting to sound down right silky. While that was happening the bass began to really show it's quality not to mention extention and power.
The last thing I found to be essential was room placement. BLH
by their nature are intended to be placed near the back wall preferably in the corners. As you can see from my pictures I place them right in the corners with only about 6 inches behind them and toed in so they intersect with an imaginary point about 3 feet in front of my head. The speakers are 9 ft apart and my listening position is 14 ft back. At present my 166ES-R's have bloomed into the most musically satisfying transducer I have ever owned period. Don't be discouraged. your speakers will balance out they just need some time. I suggest letting them play at moderate volume with some strong fundemental bass music. Something with a lot of dynamics letting the voice coils get a good work out. Get them away from the room center and back against the walls and let em rip. I know in time you will be very satisfied with your speakers. Remember that the cabinet also needs time to settle in.
Do you think a Stradivarious sounded good right out of the box......not on your life.
Cheers, have fun,
Jrook
Hi Mike, I found your thread from" 206ESR first impressions"
first, Nice job with the cabinets they look very nice indeed!
As for the sound and all the tweeks you are doing I must agree strongly with mister Blumenstein's comments. When I first built the 166ES-R I too found several anomolies in their frequency response. After more than year of trial and error lsitening tests, etc etc. I must tell you that I've gone full circle.
Here is a picture of my finished speaker http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/id1.html
Let me share with you some of my conclusions to overall performance. Firstly lets make sure that we agree that these drivers need at least 600-1000 hours of play time before they settle in. Thats not a typo I really mean 600-1000 hours of play.
Second, do not try to contour the response before this break-in period by adding polyfill to the CC. I did this in the beginning and it ruined the speaker. Listen, the men who designed this enclosure knew what they were doing and they intended for the CC to be open. That doesn't mean you can't control reflections by placing 1/8 in wool felt on the back and bottom of the CC but filling the CC with poly fill changes the volume of the CC and that's a no no.
For me I settled on reducing the cc volume by about 1/4 using sand bags. This controlled the bass response without mucking up the midrange. Dampening the basket and the face of the magnet are both fine, but the big change will come with adequit break-in. Before I hit 500 hours I thought I had some broken speakers and I was very unhappy. But at about 550 hours the highs stared to really smooth out by 6 to 700 hours they were starting to sound down right silky. While that was happening the bass began to really show it's quality not to mention extention and power.
The last thing I found to be essential was room placement. BLH
by their nature are intended to be placed near the back wall preferably in the corners. As you can see from my pictures I place them right in the corners with only about 6 inches behind them and toed in so they intersect with an imaginary point about 3 feet in front of my head. The speakers are 9 ft apart and my listening position is 14 ft back. At present my 166ES-R's have bloomed into the most musically satisfying transducer I have ever owned period. Don't be discouraged. your speakers will balance out they just need some time. I suggest letting them play at moderate volume with some strong fundemental bass music. Something with a lot of dynamics letting the voice coils get a good work out. Get them away from the room center and back against the walls and let em rip. I know in time you will be very satisfied with your speakers. Remember that the cabinet also needs time to settle in.
Do you think a Stradivarious sounded good right out of the box......not on your life.
Cheers, have fun,
Jrook
Thanks for everyone`s compliments and encouragement. So far this has been a love/hate affair with these. I can tell they have the potential to be wonderful speakers that will stand the test of time, but there will be a period of adjustment. I put about 150 hrs. on them before I finished the horns, and already notice improvements over time. I`ve always wondered if the horn itself, needs break in, like the driver do. I thought I noticed that with the standard FE206E horns I built last year for my HT system. Maybe I`ll remove the stuffing in the CC except the padding on the magnet and directly behind the driver, but I`ll let everything break in some more. All comments/advice welcome and appreciated. This is a great hobby.
Mine are almost done; my father worked on them and offered them as a Christmas gift! (I still have to pay for the material but he did an amazing job!).
We have not yet put the secondary layer on the sides, so we will do some listening on them tomorrow morning before.
These babies are really heavy!
We have not yet put the secondary layer on the sides, so we will do some listening on them tomorrow morning before.
These babies are really heavy!
Let us know what your initial impression of the sound. After break in and possibly some stuffing, I hope you are as happy as I am now. You can tell from my previous posts that I got off to a rough start with these. A little judicious stuffing and lots of break in and now I`m very happy. Hope you get to happy faster. Ray
no xo,
Here are some of my impressions.
Please consider that I have yet to add the second layer of plywood on the sides. I also have not yet put the 2 long vertical plywood sticks at the rear. So none of this is truly completed, and of course, there has been no coating of any kind on them. They look beautiful with that pale blonde colour though! Some detail on the construction: no screws were used. Instead, wood studs were used to supplement the adhesive. Of note, instead of the 4 sheets, we were able to use only 2, with some to spare.
The drivers had been installed in sheets of 3/8" plywood and used as open baffles for about 6 months, so the burn in has been extensive, but outside the cabinet.
I had some reservations about having the cabinet made: the Open Baffle style was rather nice so far, and only because the wood had been purchased already, I felt compelled to make them. Although I was to make them with my father, he decided to make them. So I was quite surprised when I visited him to found out they were completed.
Set up. The amplifier used is a basic S.E.X. amp from bottlehead, an amp I made for my brother which provides about 2 watts. When these speakers will be brought at my place, an enhanced S.E.X. amp will drive the speakers. The room they are in right now are in a basement, with nice wooden floors, and a large carpet in the middle. it's dimensions are 11 x 22 x 7 feet. The furniture, besides 2 glass-top tables are big chairs and sofa in a nice fabric. There are are also bookshelves covering the back wall, opposite to the speakers. The ceiling is made of basic acoustic tiles.
The listening position is also quite different; as OF, the drivers were not much higher than 18 inches from the ground. Now, they are much higher!
Also, the speakers were straight on the floor, with a piece of cloth to avoid damaging the wouden floor.
So I plugged in my ipod as a source (I know; not the best considering I lost the dock with the lineout so the impressions will need to be updated with my home set-up) and started to listen, after some crude positioning.
Sting’s “Song from the Labyrinth” (a pretty nice cd by the way with a good review from Grammophon) provided some really nice sounding Luth. Actually, the setup seemed pretty realistic to me. A recording with similar style and traditional instruments from a French group doing music from the period of Dowland (“Le Poème Musical”) had a very convincing sound; the epoch instruments seemed to really blossom.
Listening to a live version of "4th of July" from Aimee Mann was quite amazing. The whole performance was natural and warm. Bass frequencies are present, but not overly present.
Although at first I had some old recordings from the 70's (Georges Moustaki’s “Eaux de Mars”) which seem to provide a boomy bass (it’s a song with a plain guitar), but this did not last long. I actually feel the whole thing got its balance quite rapidly after changing the position a bit. Antonio Carlos Jobim “Agua de Março” sounded very real; at some point, the flutes were a bit strong, but that was only on one part of the song. From memory, the same flutes always seem to be a bit forced on one note.
I listened to “Hey Joe”, from Jimi Hendrix, and this was also quite nice... high frequencies are really fantastic; the sound is detailed and yet, I did not feel any fatigue from my listening position. The bass is not overwhelming, and songs with a lot of beat are lively and engaging.
In terms of soundstage, I am not too sure; I feel the room may be too small to allow for these speakers to sing accordingly. I may have to give it a longer listen with some chamber music like trios and quatuors, but I do not have these recordings on hand. My home has a room of 15 x 28 x 10 feet, so this should not be a problem there, once I will move these beasts over there...
Also, I do not master the vocabulary of hobbyists regarding Hi-Fi; I try to rely on what I feel, so I apologize for not being better at conveying my feelings from these sessions, beyond the pride of having an almost completely diy system, one that provides me with a great, great deal of satisfaction.
My previous system was a QUAD 77 cd and integrated amp, with Totem Model 1 Signature speakers. Those are now in boxes, and will get out only for the person who will purchase them.
I should provide more insights in the next few days, especially after my brother will unwrap the SEX amp I built for him, on December 25... ;o)
Some recordings I want to try are some symphonic recordings from the '50s (Moussorgsky's "Pictures at an an exhibition" on Mercury Living Presence label) and some organ works to check those bass frequencies.
The big decisions I may have to make will be regarding the sides; should I add the second layer of plywood?
Also, would these speakers benefit from spikes underneath?
At this time, I see no need for a super tweeter, although experience may lead me to think otherwise in the future!
Here are some of my impressions.
Please consider that I have yet to add the second layer of plywood on the sides. I also have not yet put the 2 long vertical plywood sticks at the rear. So none of this is truly completed, and of course, there has been no coating of any kind on them. They look beautiful with that pale blonde colour though! Some detail on the construction: no screws were used. Instead, wood studs were used to supplement the adhesive. Of note, instead of the 4 sheets, we were able to use only 2, with some to spare.
The drivers had been installed in sheets of 3/8" plywood and used as open baffles for about 6 months, so the burn in has been extensive, but outside the cabinet.
I had some reservations about having the cabinet made: the Open Baffle style was rather nice so far, and only because the wood had been purchased already, I felt compelled to make them. Although I was to make them with my father, he decided to make them. So I was quite surprised when I visited him to found out they were completed.
Set up. The amplifier used is a basic S.E.X. amp from bottlehead, an amp I made for my brother which provides about 2 watts. When these speakers will be brought at my place, an enhanced S.E.X. amp will drive the speakers. The room they are in right now are in a basement, with nice wooden floors, and a large carpet in the middle. it's dimensions are 11 x 22 x 7 feet. The furniture, besides 2 glass-top tables are big chairs and sofa in a nice fabric. There are are also bookshelves covering the back wall, opposite to the speakers. The ceiling is made of basic acoustic tiles.
The listening position is also quite different; as OF, the drivers were not much higher than 18 inches from the ground. Now, they are much higher!
Also, the speakers were straight on the floor, with a piece of cloth to avoid damaging the wouden floor.
So I plugged in my ipod as a source (I know; not the best considering I lost the dock with the lineout so the impressions will need to be updated with my home set-up) and started to listen, after some crude positioning.
Sting’s “Song from the Labyrinth” (a pretty nice cd by the way with a good review from Grammophon) provided some really nice sounding Luth. Actually, the setup seemed pretty realistic to me. A recording with similar style and traditional instruments from a French group doing music from the period of Dowland (“Le Poème Musical”) had a very convincing sound; the epoch instruments seemed to really blossom.
Listening to a live version of "4th of July" from Aimee Mann was quite amazing. The whole performance was natural and warm. Bass frequencies are present, but not overly present.
Although at first I had some old recordings from the 70's (Georges Moustaki’s “Eaux de Mars”) which seem to provide a boomy bass (it’s a song with a plain guitar), but this did not last long. I actually feel the whole thing got its balance quite rapidly after changing the position a bit. Antonio Carlos Jobim “Agua de Março” sounded very real; at some point, the flutes were a bit strong, but that was only on one part of the song. From memory, the same flutes always seem to be a bit forced on one note.
I listened to “Hey Joe”, from Jimi Hendrix, and this was also quite nice... high frequencies are really fantastic; the sound is detailed and yet, I did not feel any fatigue from my listening position. The bass is not overwhelming, and songs with a lot of beat are lively and engaging.
In terms of soundstage, I am not too sure; I feel the room may be too small to allow for these speakers to sing accordingly. I may have to give it a longer listen with some chamber music like trios and quatuors, but I do not have these recordings on hand. My home has a room of 15 x 28 x 10 feet, so this should not be a problem there, once I will move these beasts over there...
Also, I do not master the vocabulary of hobbyists regarding Hi-Fi; I try to rely on what I feel, so I apologize for not being better at conveying my feelings from these sessions, beyond the pride of having an almost completely diy system, one that provides me with a great, great deal of satisfaction.
My previous system was a QUAD 77 cd and integrated amp, with Totem Model 1 Signature speakers. Those are now in boxes, and will get out only for the person who will purchase them.
I should provide more insights in the next few days, especially after my brother will unwrap the SEX amp I built for him, on December 25... ;o)
Some recordings I want to try are some symphonic recordings from the '50s (Moussorgsky's "Pictures at an an exhibition" on Mercury Living Presence label) and some organ works to check those bass frequencies.
The big decisions I may have to make will be regarding the sides; should I add the second layer of plywood?
Also, would these speakers benefit from spikes underneath?
At this time, I see no need for a super tweeter, although experience may lead me to think otherwise in the future!
Spikes under BLH
Aye er howdy, Penderqast. I built the 166ES-R in back loaded horn cabinet as described in the fostex factory plan. I listened to them for about 4 months before installing these spikes at all four corners. Big improvement http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-715. As for the rear bracing I built and installed the same ladder style back baffle brace and found there to be very little difference in the sound. The side panels maybe though I didn't build mine with double sides.
Here's the link to my system and their is a second page,
http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/
Happy Holidays to all
JC
Aye er howdy, Penderqast. I built the 166ES-R in back loaded horn cabinet as described in the fostex factory plan. I listened to them for about 4 months before installing these spikes at all four corners. Big improvement http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-715. As for the rear bracing I built and installed the same ladder style back baffle brace and found there to be very little difference in the sound. The side panels maybe though I didn't build mine with double sides.
Here's the link to my system and their is a second page,
http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/
Happy Holidays to all
JC
Howdy jroot!
I remember your very nice set up! Thank you for the suggestions; I will look into it!
PS: Your wife is very lovely indeed!
I remember your very nice set up! Thank you for the suggestions; I will look into it!
PS: Your wife is very lovely indeed!
Penderqast, I try to follow the plans as exact as possible, so I included the rear braces and doubled side panels. I feel these are necessary to keep the bass flat and extended, though I never listened without them. Kloss even doubles the top panel. I put a sheet of 3/4" deflex behind the driver and I still expiriment with stuffing. I stuff the CC and 1st 2 folds of the horn lightly, to reduce midrange from exiting out of the mouth. This has helped control the boomy bass I had problems with at first. I have wondered if spikes would benefit these because they are so heavy, but I`ll probably try some this winter. Overall I am very happy with them and these will be my mains for several years. They replaced some Proac Response 1SC`s, but I still like those to much to sell them, but they have been in a closet for quite a while. Keep us posted on your progress.
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