why don't you want an helping woofer when this approcc in all it's variant is so well documented, and something like MJK h-baffle with an ff85k will give you stellar quality sound? bass is one of the things OB excel at...
anyway i thinl the b200 is better suited if it has to go alone, a quick google and you will find much about it with a very wide but foldable baffle, at that point if you are not sure or in a budget (only two reasons i see not to use helper woofer) the wildburro betsy in it's foldable baffle is probably a bargain over the b200... i didn't heard any of them btw 🙂
anyway i thinl the b200 is better suited if it has to go alone, a quick google and you will find much about it with a very wide but foldable baffle, at that point if you are not sure or in a budget (only two reasons i see not to use helper woofer) the wildburro betsy in it's foldable baffle is probably a bargain over the b200... i didn't heard any of them btw 🙂
That's odd. I'm sure the problems are there at 9k and at those other very high points just as you describe, Bud, but it's only the 2-3k area that bothers me. Since I've been using Foobar I can analyze problem sounds while looking at where they spike, and they spike in that 1.9-3.5k area every time. But perhaps I'm listening to music with more energy in that area than most people. I can tell you that aside from that narrow band, the drivers do nothing wrong 'to my ears' along the rest of their bandwidth.
That's not to say the treatment didn't improve those problem mids. It did. It's already so far ahead of a, say, 206 in that area that comparisons are night and day. I just want to dull that zone some more. I wish I knew precisely where along the cone that band is being reproduced. My guess is about 5/8" from the whizzer edge, or right about the median between the whizz edge and surround glued area.
That's not to say the treatment didn't improve those problem mids. It did. It's already so far ahead of a, say, 206 in that area that comparisons are night and day. I just want to dull that zone some more. I wish I knew precisely where along the cone that band is being reproduced. My guess is about 5/8" from the whizzer edge, or right about the median between the whizz edge and surround glued area.
I will give the AN Super 8 Cast Frame a try.
Thank you MONREQ for posting your sounds in You Tube. Next time don't move the camera so much as I got dizzi looking at it though.
I agree with your assessment that if you are getting decent and pleasing sound on your computer built-in speakers of a sound that was probably recorded by either a cumputer or a video camera microphone, I can only imagine what that would sound in person.🙂
I have a pair of the Nagaoka design large BLHs in which I have been running Fostex FE206 ES-Rs. It will be most interesting to hear what the Super 8 Cast Frames will sound in these enclosures thus I intend to get me a pair of those. For the price, it is well worth to run the experiment.
For what I heard on the videos, the midrange is involving and overall presentation carries substance and weight.
Since I am not a purist and not afraid to be blasfemous to satisfy my decadent audio tastes of mostly classical music: I have an 18" Velodyne HGS sub w/a built in 1500W amp in the mix (for the truly subterranean sounds) which kicks in at below 80HZ.😉
Throw in a Jeff Korneff 2 Wpc 45 tubes SET integrated amp, a Rega P5 table w/a Benz Micro Glyder MC cartridge plus an E.A.R. 834P tube phono stage and I am more than likely going to hear wonders in my modest system.😱
Since I believe in re-cycling, I will also use a pair of Realistic (Fostex made) vintage (used) super tweeters which I modified by replacing the caps w/Obligatto 2.2uf caps.
This site is about sharing, of mostly what has work for you. I honestly feel that the AN Super 8 Cast Frames will work for me. I will post after break-in to give my report.
Thank you MONREQ for posting your sounds in You Tube. Next time don't move the camera so much as I got dizzi looking at it though.
I agree with your assessment that if you are getting decent and pleasing sound on your computer built-in speakers of a sound that was probably recorded by either a cumputer or a video camera microphone, I can only imagine what that would sound in person.🙂
I have a pair of the Nagaoka design large BLHs in which I have been running Fostex FE206 ES-Rs. It will be most interesting to hear what the Super 8 Cast Frames will sound in these enclosures thus I intend to get me a pair of those. For the price, it is well worth to run the experiment.
For what I heard on the videos, the midrange is involving and overall presentation carries substance and weight.
Since I am not a purist and not afraid to be blasfemous to satisfy my decadent audio tastes of mostly classical music: I have an 18" Velodyne HGS sub w/a built in 1500W amp in the mix (for the truly subterranean sounds) which kicks in at below 80HZ.😉
Throw in a Jeff Korneff 2 Wpc 45 tubes SET integrated amp, a Rega P5 table w/a Benz Micro Glyder MC cartridge plus an E.A.R. 834P tube phono stage and I am more than likely going to hear wonders in my modest system.😱
Since I believe in re-cycling, I will also use a pair of Realistic (Fostex made) vintage (used) super tweeters which I modified by replacing the caps w/Obligatto 2.2uf caps.
This site is about sharing, of mostly what has work for you. I honestly feel that the AN Super 8 Cast Frames will work for me. I will post after break-in to give my report.
I installed the AN Super 8 Cast Frames on my Back Loaded Horns, and I am now half way throught the break-in process. They are getting better (or I am getting more use to them) by the day. They are very musical, and I find myself more drawn to the music and getting more involved in the experience, than I used to do w/the Fostex, where I spent a considerable amount of time analyzing the sound in spite of the music. So far so good.
How long have you had them?
I would say the "break in" process could go on for a year or more, depending on usage.
I also noticed that if i stop using them for a few weeks, then it takes a few hours to get them right again.
Just my experience of course.
BTW. If they turn out to be as poor as some might suggest, you can always sell them to me.
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Hey guys,
I've been using the AN8 in an OB crossed to the eminence alpha 15 at 150 Hz. It sounds phenomenal. It helps if you have an active crossover, as well as other tricks such as notch filters and shelving filters.
I've measured the AN8s and they have two big resonances at 3 kHz and 4.5 kHz which gives them the peaky/shouty quality. But this, I'm assuming, is a hallmark of all high-eff full range drivers with a whizzer. There is also a nasty bump in the response around 10-14 kHz which makes the 'sssss' sounds really harsh to listen to.
The geometry of the baffle takes care of the rising response. Baffle geometry designed using 'The Edge' software.
The notch filter is set at 4.5 kHz. I found this to have a better sound than one at 3 kHz. The notch filter really cleans up the sound really nicely and makes listenable at loud volumes. Crossover is FirstWatt B4.
I've added wings near the woofer to the baffle you see in the picture. The wings are 15" tall and 12" deep and help support the baffle.
The dip at 150 Hz and subsequent bump is an artifact of adding pillows near the woofer during measurement. There is a slight 150 Hz dip even without the pillows and I'm trying to address that with the side wings. The response is in-room with little else done to prevent reflection. It is smoothed to 1/3rd octave. You can see the two little bumps at 3 kHz and 4.5 kHz. They show up as nasty resonances on the CSD plot. The bump at 10 kHz is also very audible and is easily fixed from Foobar. But I just leave it as it is.
All said and done, this is a phenomenal driver for silly money, really. Everyone should own one!
Human.bin,
I owe you a thread on this design man! I'll try to put it up this weekend.
I've been using the AN8 in an OB crossed to the eminence alpha 15 at 150 Hz. It sounds phenomenal. It helps if you have an active crossover, as well as other tricks such as notch filters and shelving filters.
I've measured the AN8s and they have two big resonances at 3 kHz and 4.5 kHz which gives them the peaky/shouty quality. But this, I'm assuming, is a hallmark of all high-eff full range drivers with a whizzer. There is also a nasty bump in the response around 10-14 kHz which makes the 'sssss' sounds really harsh to listen to.
The geometry of the baffle takes care of the rising response. Baffle geometry designed using 'The Edge' software.
The notch filter is set at 4.5 kHz. I found this to have a better sound than one at 3 kHz. The notch filter really cleans up the sound really nicely and makes listenable at loud volumes. Crossover is FirstWatt B4.
I've added wings near the woofer to the baffle you see in the picture. The wings are 15" tall and 12" deep and help support the baffle.
The dip at 150 Hz and subsequent bump is an artifact of adding pillows near the woofer during measurement. There is a slight 150 Hz dip even without the pillows and I'm trying to address that with the side wings. The response is in-room with little else done to prevent reflection. It is smoothed to 1/3rd octave. You can see the two little bumps at 3 kHz and 4.5 kHz. They show up as nasty resonances on the CSD plot. The bump at 10 kHz is also very audible and is easily fixed from Foobar. But I just leave it as it is.
All said and done, this is a phenomenal driver for silly money, really. Everyone should own one!
Human.bin,
I owe you a thread on this design man! I'll try to put it up this weekend.
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I have the Audio Nirvana Super 8 Cast Frames installed for about a month and a half. As you can see in the picture attached (forgive the poor quality, I just took them w/my cell phone) they are doing double duty as 2 channel audio (Korneff 45 Sei SET integrated amp) and as part of the 5.1 surround setup (B&K SS receiver), thus they should break-in sooner than w/just 2 channel duty.
The large black square at the bottom left center is a Velodyne 18 HGS sub that can go down to 16 HZ if need be. It is connected to both the Korneff and the B&K and crossed over @ 80Hz using the sub's own adjustable filter. The Velo has a 1500w built in SS amp, that can deliver up to 3000w if need be. It also has a servo controller that adjust the driver excursion to prevent undue boominess by analyzing the input signal vs. the output waves and making the necessary adjustments in real time. Thus, I can have my SET 2wpc bliss and the SS punch both at the same time. For most music the sub is not needed w/the large horns, but when required (organ music and rock) I'm glad it is there.
I know I'm not being much of a purist here and you may call this cheating, but what the hey! it is all about the music, isn't it? I believe the AN's are going to be w/me for a long time.
The large black square at the bottom left center is a Velodyne 18 HGS sub that can go down to 16 HZ if need be. It is connected to both the Korneff and the B&K and crossed over @ 80Hz using the sub's own adjustable filter. The Velo has a 1500w built in SS amp, that can deliver up to 3000w if need be. It also has a servo controller that adjust the driver excursion to prevent undue boominess by analyzing the input signal vs. the output waves and making the necessary adjustments in real time. Thus, I can have my SET 2wpc bliss and the SS punch both at the same time. For most music the sub is not needed w/the large horns, but when required (organ music and rock) I'm glad it is there.
I know I'm not being much of a purist here and you may call this cheating, but what the hey! it is all about the music, isn't it? I believe the AN's are going to be w/me for a long time.
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Good stuff.
I've been using these for nearly three years, and don't feel the need for change.
eagertrader,
How is the Realistic tweeter working for you? Tough to integrate? What crossover point did you use?
How is the Realistic tweeter working for you? Tough to integrate? What crossover point did you use?
Hello Eagertrader!
Don't worry about "cheating" it's your system and your ears that you have to make happy! I started out much like you did with full range drivers. In fact, I've been using different "full range " drivers in Sachikos double back-loaded-horns for over 2 years now. I started with FE206E full range drivers, pulled them out and replaced them with FE206ES-R full range drivers ---{that provided better clarity and better frequency extention at both extremes}--- but unfortunately like all full range drivers I've heard, they both had a shout that became more & more noticable as they got to a certain loudness and louder than that they'd start to breakup completely sonically and become unlistenable. Despite that fact, in many ways when kept below a certain dB threshold, these were both producing some of the best music I had ever heard, but their faults eventually became more & more noticable & more & more unbearable.
In the end I pulled the FE206ES-R out and replaced them with FE208ES-R full range drivers. These have no whizzer, hence no shout. In addition to that they have a much larger & stronger 6.3Kg Alnico motor! So clarity, transparency & inner resolution was like that of great ribbon or electrostatic. Dynamics & transient response are startlingly lifelike as well. Unfortunately with these wonderful improvements came some restrictions as well. Due to the FE208ES-R driver's much stronger magent, Qts and other values changed. Now to try an make a looonnnggg story as short as possible, with the FE208ES-R in the Sachikos playing full range, they roll off naturally at 100Hz at the lowend & naturally at 8Khz on the highend! However to my delight that 100Hz - 8Khz was the finest I've ever heard from any driver cone or otherwise.
They not only rivaled the best ribbons, ELS & horns, they also seemed to combine their salient points while leaving their weaknesses behind. They're capable of easily hitting 110dB peaks ---{measured in-room}--- without an ounce of strain, but 100Hz - 8Khz is hardly full range music reproduction. I knew I had to do something, but there was absolutely no way in hell I was about to mess with what I now heard with the Sachiko/FE208ES-R combo! I did that once before and ruined everything. So this time I decided to just well enough alone and leave the FE208ES-R drivers running full range and just augment their extremes as needed. On the highend I added a pair of large dipole Heils to cover from 8Kz - 25Khz and on the low end I added a pair of 15" Hawthorne Audio dipole "Augies" to cover from 100Hz and lower. The "Augies" which ar on loan from a friend John K. of the Space Coast Audio Society are temporarily being crossed overed & powered seperately by some pro gear on loan from a friend Paul B from the Central Florida Audio Society.
These days from 25Hz to 25Khz, I, as well as friends from Central Florida Audio Society, SETriodes Group & Space Coast Audio Society believe the sound is reference level or worldclass. It sounds like a great ribbon or electrostatic with the transients & dynamics of a horn! It has to me heard to be believed. I don't consider it cheating at all! I still use the Fostex full range. I'm just helping to fill-in what's missing at the extremes. Have you ever heard the song "If loving you is wrong" by Luther Ingram? If so you'll remember the line that went "If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right. If being right means being without you I'd rather live a wrong doing life."
Well as far as my system now goes I'd paraphrase it like this "If using augement drivers is wrong I don't wanna be right. If listening right means listening without them I'd rather listen wrong than right." If that offends others I'm sorry, but this is the best I and many of my friends have heard. Besides it's my system and my ears, right? So keep up the good work and keep searching for what sounds best to you! I'll end this be highly recommending that you listen to as much live, unamplified ---{whether it's a folk band, bluegrass, Metallica unplugged or a Symphony doesn't matter}--- music as you can so you know what the music and instruments you like really sound like in a variety of enviroments.
Here's a link to my system: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/1556
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
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TubeGuy: Amen to that.
PS: Awesome system you have there. My previous rig was 845 based as well. Very dynamic and powerful tubes. I felt that I had to try the "magic" I've been hearing about of a well executed 45 amp, hence the Korneff 45 Sei made by Jeff Korneff in Pittsburgh (a gem of a gent.)
It is amazing what only two good watts can do on an efficient full ranger as the AN Super 8's, or any of the other FR's w/95db efficiency or better. I believe that the horns I have which were made by John K. for the Fostex FE206 ES-R probably take the AN's efficiency to about 98db or higher, as they are pretty loud @ 9 o'clock.
Keep up the good listening!
PS: Awesome system you have there. My previous rig was 845 based as well. Very dynamic and powerful tubes. I felt that I had to try the "magic" I've been hearing about of a well executed 45 amp, hence the Korneff 45 Sei made by Jeff Korneff in Pittsburgh (a gem of a gent.)
It is amazing what only two good watts can do on an efficient full ranger as the AN Super 8's, or any of the other FR's w/95db efficiency or better. I believe that the horns I have which were made by John K. for the Fostex FE206 ES-R probably take the AN's efficiency to about 98db or higher, as they are pretty loud @ 9 o'clock.
Keep up the good listening!
ra7, I just ran into this thread. Thanks for the sweep data. It will give me an idea of what to look for since my system will be nearly identical to yours except I'll have an Hframe on the Alpha 15's. My ears are also pretty susceptible to those mid peak shreaks, so I'll be sure to look for them. I'll have a MiniDSP for that stuff.
So where is it??lol
That thread is yet to materialize 🙂 I think about it every weekend, but then there are so many other things to do.
I've got some more measurements from other drivers. My baffle shape has changed and the woofers are now Eminence Deltalite II, a huge improvement over the Alpha 15s. You know all this from your Qts thread 🙂
A very good thing the MiniDSP is. You should also get a measurement mic also (I suggested this earlier). A flat response lets instruments breathe better. A bump or a dip somewhere can make some instruments sound congested. Still, a flat response isn't necessarily the goal, nor is it the most important to better sound, IMO.
I've got some more measurements from other drivers. My baffle shape has changed and the woofers are now Eminence Deltalite II, a huge improvement over the Alpha 15s. You know all this from your Qts thread 🙂
A very good thing the MiniDSP is. You should also get a measurement mic also (I suggested this earlier). A flat response lets instruments breathe better. A bump or a dip somewhere can make some instruments sound congested. Still, a flat response isn't necessarily the goal, nor is it the most important to better sound, IMO.
Yeah, I know you're system has changed since then, just razzing.
I'm even thinking of adding an inline digital graphic EQ to the whole system, just so I can select a curve for various music styles. I hate to put too much processing in the line but I bet it would be worth it. Something like Behringer DEQ2496 would be perfect, as long as it didn't blow up. I have heard that Behringer has improved it's QC, though.
Your comments on the woofers were one day too late for me. I've already received the Alpha 15's (and a Dayton mic and Behringer preamp/mixer). I can return them but I hate to now. I wish I knew if it would be worth the extra cost for me, even for the low q Eminence Beta 15. It was for you. What kind of music is the difference most evident? I don't do head banging hiphop or metal, but more in the blues/female vocal/classical/jazz genre. Good lows on organ and orchestral basses would be nice and I guess detail would be important there.
Just ramblings. Ignore them if you wish...
Certainly not. Your ears aren't flat, your preferences aren't flat. You must feed your ears what they want to hear. A flat driver would probably get horrible reviews here. I can hear it now, "There is just no music there..." Being a new guy to serious audio and without any biases at all, I get the impression that so many of the debates over driver quality (Fostex vs Lowther, etc) center around frequency response curves which can so easily be shaped with EQ. I know there are other factors, of course, but say, among those drivers consistently rated as "high quality" or audiophile quality, response curve seems to be the most important difference. For example, many people criticize Lowthers as being shouty in treble ranges when that is offensive to their ears. To Lowther lovers, Fostex drivers seem too boring. I'd be willing to bet that if you EQ'd both to produce the same responses in a particular baffle or box, any differences would be pretty subtle and not spark much controversy. These are just my interpretation of comments I've heard, of course. But for me, if someone complains that a particular driver sucks big time because it is shouty or peaky at some frequency range, I figure I can just EQ it out anyway.
I'm even thinking of adding an inline digital graphic EQ to the whole system, just so I can select a curve for various music styles. I hate to put too much processing in the line but I bet it would be worth it. Something like Behringer DEQ2496 would be perfect, as long as it didn't blow up. I have heard that Behringer has improved it's QC, though.
Your comments on the woofers were one day too late for me. I've already received the Alpha 15's (and a Dayton mic and Behringer preamp/mixer). I can return them but I hate to now. I wish I knew if it would be worth the extra cost for me, even for the low q Eminence Beta 15. It was for you. What kind of music is the difference most evident? I don't do head banging hiphop or metal, but more in the blues/female vocal/classical/jazz genre. Good lows on organ and orchestral basses would be nice and I guess detail would be important there.
Just ramblings. Ignore them if you wish...
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Roscoeii, I apologize for responding this late. Regarding the Realistic Super Tweeter, I believe that back in the 70's Fostex made them for Tandy Corporation. They sounded good, but I replaced the capacitor with a 2.2uF Obligatto cap and they sound now much sharper in terms of rounding off the field definition, and extending the highs into the realm of the inaudible.
Probably one of the best bargains in audio. They come up for sale on the 'bay all the time. I highly recommend replacing the stock cap though.
Easy to integrate, you just add it to the same speaker line, and the built-in crossover takes them from 5Khz upwards. The sonic improvement in your system is immediately noticeable. See picture of the tweeters on top of my BLH's.
Hope this helps.
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Well, turns out that your response on the Realistic was well-timed. Just picked up a pair (made in Japan) off eBay. Haven't opened them up yet to replace the cap. Just need to figure out the best cap size for the crossover point that looks best for me. I've just started reading about how second order crossovers will cause drivers to be out of phase, so I am thinking a first order crossover, with a pretty high crossover point. Something fun to tinker around with...
I have a pair of AN cast 10 and loved them. I used them for several years with an SET amplifier.
I'm glad that my reply was timely. I originally experimented w/a lower value cap at 1.0uF which had a higher crossover point, but made any improvement less noticeable. The 2.2 uF Obligattos were the right ones for me. I used the same uF value as the schematic on the Realistic Supertweeter manual.
Fortunately, decent caps are cheap (Obligattos being one of them). I gues you can experiment with different values and let your ears be the judge. I would not experiment with high end Mundorfs though...$$$
By the way, the space inside the tweeter enclosure is limited, thus make sure that the dimensions of the caps you order will fit in the available space. The 2.2's gave me a big scare as I did not take that into consideration as the previous caps were smaller, and these almost did not fit. If you are looking at lower uF values to have a higher crossover points you are probably going to be fine. Post a picture along w/your reply to this post once you have them up and running.
Thanks. I will play around with a number of different values, as well as first (6dB/octave; cap only) and second (12dB/octave; cap and coil) order crossovers. We will see what integrates best...
Will certainly keep everyone here informed. I even have a pair of fostex supertweeters that I can compare them to eventually. If things are tighter than my soldering skills permit, I will likely just put things outside the enclosure.
And FWIW, these supertweeters are on top of the AN stamped 12" driver in the 2.8 box plans from Common Sense with two 3" ports.
Will certainly keep everyone here informed. I even have a pair of fostex supertweeters that I can compare them to eventually. If things are tighter than my soldering skills permit, I will likely just put things outside the enclosure.
And FWIW, these supertweeters are on top of the AN stamped 12" driver in the 2.8 box plans from Common Sense with two 3" ports.
Sounds good to me. I will now turn my system on and play a Chick Korea LP before I turn for the night. Happy Tinkering.
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