Good stuff!
Interesting plots - yours v the Taylor.
In my experience of testing things that sound perceivably different, be it cables (copper v pure silver tonearm cable), caps, power supply, speaker drivers etc etc, if you measure two plots that have different regions by a couple, or a few dB in comparison, that is measurement showing / confirming what you are hearing.
Did you do distortion and phase plots?
If I just have a feeling something sounds a bit different, or I can't say for sure, then invariably I can't measure it either!
Of course our ears are not machines. We get tired, emotional, forget, etc etc. I guess they even creep in response over time too.
But the measurements will not - perhaps the wood and other materials in your guitar will creep a bit, but not by much.
Perhaps that's why a very old Antonio Stradivarius sounds preferable, as well as how it was made?
Do you measure before and after each significant developing step?
Might be good to show the changes / development in what / plots to Yamaha..? Even the difference between yours and a known good guitar - like the plot you have.
Interesting plots - yours v the Taylor.
In my experience of testing things that sound perceivably different, be it cables (copper v pure silver tonearm cable), caps, power supply, speaker drivers etc etc, if you measure two plots that have different regions by a couple, or a few dB in comparison, that is measurement showing / confirming what you are hearing.
Did you do distortion and phase plots?
If I just have a feeling something sounds a bit different, or I can't say for sure, then invariably I can't measure it either!
Of course our ears are not machines. We get tired, emotional, forget, etc etc. I guess they even creep in response over time too.
But the measurements will not - perhaps the wood and other materials in your guitar will creep a bit, but not by much.
Perhaps that's why a very old Antonio Stradivarius sounds preferable, as well as how it was made?
Do you measure before and after each significant developing step?
Might be good to show the changes / development in what / plots to Yamaha..? Even the difference between yours and a known good guitar - like the plot you have.
Steve The Swede - I have done distortion plots before, phase plots not yet. Before and after not really, but really like the idea!
JJ - I think about a bell that is small and thin, sounds terrible. Then a church bell. We have one in town, and I have been in the bell tower when it rings. I mean this thing is probably 100 years old. I bet two inches thick, maybe Copper? At least three feet in diameter and about four feet fall. When it rang, we had to cover our ears, unbelievable. and you can easily hear it a half a mile away.
Big shapes and thick wall sections of great material (Copper or Maple) create deep rich beautiful sounds, that ring out like crazy. I know this is more poetic than scientific, but if I measured that big bell with REW, wow, I would be stunned. I may need to take my laptop up to the bell tower!
I am telling you, a thick wall section on the guitar sides and back does wonders. I remember a gent that was a guitar "expert". OK don't really remember who, and I likely posted is about a year ago, but he said: make the body as rigid as possible, so it rings like a bell, and make the soundboard the exact opposite, so it vibrates like mad. I took his advise and he was correct!
Anyway, my daughters and friends are home this weekend, they want to record my guitar and put it on TikTok. I am thinking about it, but not sure I want to do that just yet. My iPhone 7 is so old, recordings sound like ****. They have an iPhone 15 and I think it might sound pretty good, we shall see!
I played my guitar last night for two hours, no horns or electronics, can't believe how good it sounds, getting so very encouraged. Lets Rock!
JJ - I think about a bell that is small and thin, sounds terrible. Then a church bell. We have one in town, and I have been in the bell tower when it rings. I mean this thing is probably 100 years old. I bet two inches thick, maybe Copper? At least three feet in diameter and about four feet fall. When it rang, we had to cover our ears, unbelievable. and you can easily hear it a half a mile away.
Big shapes and thick wall sections of great material (Copper or Maple) create deep rich beautiful sounds, that ring out like crazy. I know this is more poetic than scientific, but if I measured that big bell with REW, wow, I would be stunned. I may need to take my laptop up to the bell tower!
I am telling you, a thick wall section on the guitar sides and back does wonders. I remember a gent that was a guitar "expert". OK don't really remember who, and I likely posted is about a year ago, but he said: make the body as rigid as possible, so it rings like a bell, and make the soundboard the exact opposite, so it vibrates like mad. I took his advise and he was correct!
Anyway, my daughters and friends are home this weekend, they want to record my guitar and put it on TikTok. I am thinking about it, but not sure I want to do that just yet. My iPhone 7 is so old, recordings sound like ****. They have an iPhone 15 and I think it might sound pretty good, we shall see!
I played my guitar last night for two hours, no horns or electronics, can't believe how good it sounds, getting so very encouraged. Lets Rock!
I use a small pocket Sony camera, which I can see has two microphones, thought the spacing between them is dubious. Seems to give an OK result on headphones. One thing I havent tried is dropping a stereo track into a video simultaneously recorded on a different device. Stitch together video file A and audio file B; slide one along in time to sync. I'm sure that's trivial for all the U-tube producers; I wouldnt even know what software to use.
Make us a recording - sans room - so we all can hear how this instrument sounds. Before winter comes and you cant get outside anymore.
JJ - I must admit I have not played a guitar outside in a long time. I do enjoy that, I just don't really do it much anymore. I agree it is critical to record this, and buskers will do this of course, but what is more important to me is comparing my guitar to very good acoustic guitars, in any environment. Without measurements closely comparing the two, I am not sure how I could sell this, or even convince myself (I do that with my ear, but I like the data to confirm, and it always does, so far). Martin/Taylor/Guild/Gibson...so many other great acoustic guitars built by smaller Luthiers is the gold standard, and I must compare myself to that first and foremost.
Will I eventually measure outside, sure, I really don't have a great place to do that now, as I live right in town. I did provide recordings earlier, and they were OK, but were only a different acoustic guitar played through my horns, so not totally the real thing.
I did try some recording with my daughters iPhone 14 (not 15) and it was a bust. I broke my low E string very early in the recording, what a drag. I put on a new one, but then need to retune, let the new string find its home, was getting late, pulled the plug on it, was not going well. I really need to do it myself, as I need to set all tone controls on both channels as I play and listen, not really a crowd pleaser. It seems the louder I get, the less tone control help I need. When I am playing on "9" it really really rocks, almost too much, and I turn the tone off almost completely on both channels. Plus I need to watch feedback at that level, but man the sustain is incredible. When I play on 5 or 6, so as not to wake "others", I rely much more on tone controls, does this make sense?
When I play acoustic only, which sounds great also, I just play and tend to play hard!
I think after playing so much acoustically on my guitar lately (no horns), I fell into harder playing, that likely set it up. A good exercise, as it reminds me how much easier it is to play with the horns on, great power, great tone, you just play the guitar much easier. Of course going into Yamaha I will have all new strings, with a good few hours of playing, to make sure they find their home.
Recording is really not my thing, I don't have the experience or the equipment. I thought about a question that needs to be answered on every patent: "Did you show your invention to anybody?" I could see Yamaha asking me the same thing. I believe they would love to see all the great input from diyAudio. I also think they may not be thrilled about seeing a video on YouTube or TikTok, makes me pause, not sure I want to do that. I will eventually get a decent recording, I really need to buy an iPhone 15, will happen, then I would be happy to put that on diyAudio. Plus I really need to watch it myself, and try to understand how others perceive this, but boy do I want that Yamaha demo, that will be the ultimate!
Next step is to do my (5) REW measurements, should be able to do this weekend, and hope it goes better than last weekend. I was on a role, all going so well, just a glitch, will be back up soon. Plus I think I need a good EQ on the guitar for recordings, BUT I don't want to play with the sound too much.
I did find some 1/8" thick Baltic Birch 24" x 24", looks great. My existing soundboard is CNC from 1/4" thick Baltic Birch, with all ribs machined in solid, sounds great, BUT, can I just glue the ribs on and get the same result? We shall see. It would take longer of course, but is something I can do in my basement. Input always welcome!
Will I eventually measure outside, sure, I really don't have a great place to do that now, as I live right in town. I did provide recordings earlier, and they were OK, but were only a different acoustic guitar played through my horns, so not totally the real thing.
I did try some recording with my daughters iPhone 14 (not 15) and it was a bust. I broke my low E string very early in the recording, what a drag. I put on a new one, but then need to retune, let the new string find its home, was getting late, pulled the plug on it, was not going well. I really need to do it myself, as I need to set all tone controls on both channels as I play and listen, not really a crowd pleaser. It seems the louder I get, the less tone control help I need. When I am playing on "9" it really really rocks, almost too much, and I turn the tone off almost completely on both channels. Plus I need to watch feedback at that level, but man the sustain is incredible. When I play on 5 or 6, so as not to wake "others", I rely much more on tone controls, does this make sense?
When I play acoustic only, which sounds great also, I just play and tend to play hard!
I think after playing so much acoustically on my guitar lately (no horns), I fell into harder playing, that likely set it up. A good exercise, as it reminds me how much easier it is to play with the horns on, great power, great tone, you just play the guitar much easier. Of course going into Yamaha I will have all new strings, with a good few hours of playing, to make sure they find their home.
Recording is really not my thing, I don't have the experience or the equipment. I thought about a question that needs to be answered on every patent: "Did you show your invention to anybody?" I could see Yamaha asking me the same thing. I believe they would love to see all the great input from diyAudio. I also think they may not be thrilled about seeing a video on YouTube or TikTok, makes me pause, not sure I want to do that. I will eventually get a decent recording, I really need to buy an iPhone 15, will happen, then I would be happy to put that on diyAudio. Plus I really need to watch it myself, and try to understand how others perceive this, but boy do I want that Yamaha demo, that will be the ultimate!
Next step is to do my (5) REW measurements, should be able to do this weekend, and hope it goes better than last weekend. I was on a role, all going so well, just a glitch, will be back up soon. Plus I think I need a good EQ on the guitar for recordings, BUT I don't want to play with the sound too much.
I did find some 1/8" thick Baltic Birch 24" x 24", looks great. My existing soundboard is CNC from 1/4" thick Baltic Birch, with all ribs machined in solid, sounds great, BUT, can I just glue the ribs on and get the same result? We shall see. It would take longer of course, but is something I can do in my basement. Input always welcome!
So you're telling me you can go from CAD drawing to CNC of a ribbed guitar top milled from a single piece, but you cant get a field recorder (Tascam, Zoom, etc) put batteries in it, an 8GB SD card and press record? If you can push a patent through the USPTO without an attorney, I sincerely doubt making a recording is as beyond your capability as you're claiming.
Just get something, throw it on the floor a couple feet in front of you and press record. Everytime you play this guitar, horns or not. Soon enough, you'll have more trouble sorting through it all, but I bet there'll be a few minutes somewhere along the line that is good enough to show off and show someone how it sounds. Whole song? Dont need it - just enough playing to get the tone conveyed.
The "outside" recording is just an idea, as so many guitar recordings I hear is so much room,room,room. Rent a Eagles hall for an evening, make it sound like a club performance.
JJ - ha ha and point well taken. I made a recording and sent it to you, that is not too difficult I agree, I just don't think it does it justice. I really think many recordings I hear are of pretty low quality, I would like a high quality recoding that does this guitar well. I don't like the four track very well, was not impressed. Plus if I do it, I would like a video as well, to show and explain the invention. I just think a new iPhone 15 is the way to go, I will do that.
Oh yeah and part of my problem is going to Verizon on a Saturday and spending four hours in the store waiting, waiting and finally getting the new phone.
I don't remember, what did you think of the old recording? I don't think the quality was that good, and live sounded much better. But of course that was a not the real guitar, was a regular guitar through my horns. Plus as I say, I am leery about putting it out there and then telling somebody I sell it to about how many people know about it, that is IF it gets many hits. When I do have it, I would be happy to send it to you privately. I do want people like you, Art, other diyAudio people to hear the real thing. So my experience/equipment reasoning may have been lame, but the other reasons are legit. I will get there eventually.
Oh yeah and just time in general, I am working on a new project, never enough hours in the day. Things I like to do, I go for it big. Things that don't impress me, I tend to leave on the sidelines too long. Stay tuned and thanks for your patience!
Oh yeah and part of my problem is going to Verizon on a Saturday and spending four hours in the store waiting, waiting and finally getting the new phone.
I don't remember, what did you think of the old recording? I don't think the quality was that good, and live sounded much better. But of course that was a not the real guitar, was a regular guitar through my horns. Plus as I say, I am leery about putting it out there and then telling somebody I sell it to about how many people know about it, that is IF it gets many hits. When I do have it, I would be happy to send it to you privately. I do want people like you, Art, other diyAudio people to hear the real thing. So my experience/equipment reasoning may have been lame, but the other reasons are legit. I will get there eventually.
Oh yeah and just time in general, I am working on a new project, never enough hours in the day. Things I like to do, I go for it big. Things that don't impress me, I tend to leave on the sidelines too long. Stay tuned and thanks for your patience!
Oh yeah, I did like Mixpad software, that is what I used and sent you a bout 6 months ago, but also no video...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IfCQ7aCGI3AgSh4nu8HnWb__cZcbrwVr/view?usp=sharing
OK, here's I am, naked to the world (metaphorically) attempting to grind my way through Alan Parson's "Some Other Time" on my reverb enhanced acoustic body-transfer guitar. It's just me and the guitar - outside - with no effects applied other than what emanates acoustically from the guitar body. I set my Tascam DR-06 on the ground a few feet in front of me and pushed the record button. (Afterward, I used Audmonkey to trim, normalize and shelf EQ a bit from 1kHz on up).
One should "get" how the guitar sounds with me singing, reverb of both guitar and my voice through the guitar body. No room, walls and ceiling to muddy things up. It's a Cordoba C5 nylon string and I'm using a cheap headset mic with an electret element.
Recorded it ~9:30 this morning after breakfast and a cup of coffee. I've only listened to it on headphones.
OK, here's I am, naked to the world (metaphorically) attempting to grind my way through Alan Parson's "Some Other Time" on my reverb enhanced acoustic body-transfer guitar. It's just me and the guitar - outside - with no effects applied other than what emanates acoustically from the guitar body. I set my Tascam DR-06 on the ground a few feet in front of me and pushed the record button. (Afterward, I used Audmonkey to trim, normalize and shelf EQ a bit from 1kHz on up).
One should "get" how the guitar sounds with me singing, reverb of both guitar and my voice through the guitar body. No room, walls and ceiling to muddy things up. It's a Cordoba C5 nylon string and I'm using a cheap headset mic with an electret element.
Recorded it ~9:30 this morning after breakfast and a cup of coffee. I've only listened to it on headphones.
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No room, walls and ceiling to muddy things up- you used artificial reverb to do that on this recording 😉.
JJ - you have a very good voice! I like the reverb on the vocals, very Alan Parsons like (he is one of my favs). The guitar recording was good quality, but personally, I do not like reverb on an acoustic guitar. That is just an opinion, I am sure many people do like it. For instance when you pause (not you actually, everybody), the start and stop is much more abrupt, because you don't just stop playing, you stop echoing, then start echoing, just seems unnatural to me. I think you should play it again without the reverb on the guitar, let the instrument do its natural work. Keep the reverb on the vocals, me thinks.
That said, I know you are my coach and all, but I am not going to record anything until I have the setup I want, and for now that is video and recording. I must explain what I am doing, and highlight the before and after. I want to play live in front of Yamaha, but what if they ask for a recording? I want to explain this guitar invention as I go, and it is an absolute must that they hear my guitar vs. a standard guitar, like immediately, otherwise it is just another nice sounding guitar. I will do it eventually, have patience, I think I can swing getting my new iPhone within about a month.
Art - great to see you comment, you have it right. I have never heard a room put anywhere close to that kind of reverb into a recording. I like the "artificial reverb" term, because that's what it is. Are we really doing what nature does? In general, I say it is a lame attempt to recreate natural sound. OK a little reverb can be used well, but too much and watch out. Again, just an opinion!
I just put all my new strings on, my busted string last weekend really did **** everything up. I know it is my crazy unusual soundboard, but man I don't fully understand it. When it goes out of tune, it needs a little more time to settle in, maybe all the screws. Kind of frustrating at first, but when it gets in, it stays in, for a month, and it just seems to get better somehow every time I play it, crazy.
Anyway building a third soundboard, working an my new project, let's just say it is a bigger instrument, the design part is oh so fun!
Tonight is my REW night, five plot overlays is my goal, should tell a big story with the real guitar. Art after you see this, please comment!
Also doing some staining and polishing shown below, maple is easy to work with, needs some improvement, but getting there. Let's Make The Acoustic Guitar Rock!!
That said, I know you are my coach and all, but I am not going to record anything until I have the setup I want, and for now that is video and recording. I must explain what I am doing, and highlight the before and after. I want to play live in front of Yamaha, but what if they ask for a recording? I want to explain this guitar invention as I go, and it is an absolute must that they hear my guitar vs. a standard guitar, like immediately, otherwise it is just another nice sounding guitar. I will do it eventually, have patience, I think I can swing getting my new iPhone within about a month.
Art - great to see you comment, you have it right. I have never heard a room put anywhere close to that kind of reverb into a recording. I like the "artificial reverb" term, because that's what it is. Are we really doing what nature does? In general, I say it is a lame attempt to recreate natural sound. OK a little reverb can be used well, but too much and watch out. Again, just an opinion!
I just put all my new strings on, my busted string last weekend really did **** everything up. I know it is my crazy unusual soundboard, but man I don't fully understand it. When it goes out of tune, it needs a little more time to settle in, maybe all the screws. Kind of frustrating at first, but when it gets in, it stays in, for a month, and it just seems to get better somehow every time I play it, crazy.
Anyway building a third soundboard, working an my new project, let's just say it is a bigger instrument, the design part is oh so fun!
Tonight is my REW night, five plot overlays is my goal, should tell a big story with the real guitar. Art after you see this, please comment!
Also doing some staining and polishing shown below, maple is easy to work with, needs some improvement, but getting there. Let's Make The Acoustic Guitar Rock!!
Art, you taught me so much about harmonics, and man is that big. I know you know 🤣
With this big soundboard, as I said before, everything is amplified, even just acoustically. When it is out of tune, it is out bad. When it is in perfect tune, it sparkles high and warms low. I mean really, I do not hear this is as much on my Taylor or Guild.
I think about how the harmonics from one string influences another string. Through the soundboard of course, but also through air. Then add the horns, even more so of course, wow! I can see the strings move so much, you know, you can see their "shadows" so to speak. It looks like you are seeing three strings where there is only one.
Now when you do this without the horns, you just hit too hard and get buzz and distortion. When you do it with the horns, much lighter touch, but much more sound. This is the kind of **** you will not get from a recording or even a video. You have to hear it live, and best of all, you have to play it and feel it. I need a demo!!
With this big soundboard, as I said before, everything is amplified, even just acoustically. When it is out of tune, it is out bad. When it is in perfect tune, it sparkles high and warms low. I mean really, I do not hear this is as much on my Taylor or Guild.
I think about how the harmonics from one string influences another string. Through the soundboard of course, but also through air. Then add the horns, even more so of course, wow! I can see the strings move so much, you know, you can see their "shadows" so to speak. It looks like you are seeing three strings where there is only one.
Now when you do this without the horns, you just hit too hard and get buzz and distortion. When you do it with the horns, much lighter touch, but much more sound. This is the kind of **** you will not get from a recording or even a video. You have to hear it live, and best of all, you have to play it and feel it. I need a demo!!
Well, yeah - that's this pony's trick. Sounds like it's in a room / hall even when it's in my lap, on a stool in the middle of a driveway outside. Admittedly, both guitar and vocal were turned up to glare the effect. I've yet to master the control settings and dynamic things like singing more toward the headset mic when I want more vocal reverb.
I can, as the guitar and vocal inputs have separate level controls. Remember, the Transacoustic reverb on acoustic guitar is really Yamaha's baby; I think they've been building them for over 10 years now. So customers must think enough of it to keep production going.
Yours handily solves a problem that builders have been working on since before the creation of the Dreadnaught. An acoustic guitar just isnt loud enough to compete with horns in an ensamble. I'd bet your best bet is to demo your guitar in a situation that demands real loudness in order to be heard. The Busker's situation comes to mind; goes just as loud out on the street, one less thing to carry. One would think that would get Yamaha's attention, given one trick pony Transacoustic still has favor with them / customers.
Thanks! I hope it gives an idea of what can be done quickly and easily. Unsure if the latest iPhones record in stereo or if there's a way to connect external mics so you can do that; I think recording in stereo helps, especially in the current headphone age. A video eliminates the "yeah - sure - buddy" doubt that it's actually the guitar being claimed was recorded that you're hearing.
This will be post #1 for tonight. I have good REW data and will post that later tonight, still tweaking PPT's and PDF's.
So coach, yep the Yamaha Transacoustic is their current technology. I would not buy it, just not my preference. That said I think other people will buy it, maybe a very high percentage of guitar players like it, I get that. When you are running a large corporation, you go for the bucks, you have to, or you can get in trouble. Now I really like Yamaha guitars, just acoustic is good enough for me. I am especially impressed with how affordable they are, mass production (but this is quality mass production, not garbage) can do some great things for a business.
IF you are into the chorus and reverb sound, I have not doubt they are great. I also noted earlier I think the Tonewood Amp is a nice design, IF you are into that sound. One of my earlier posts had a PDF with a review from somebody else, boy he did not like the Tonewood Amp, to each their own.
I also think Yamaha may have reviewed my design and can't help but think, hmm, maybe this would work with our current system. Of course it would, I suggested this to them. My Roland amp that I use in my design, has reverb and chorus, I just don't use it.
In fact for my REW measurements, my best sound was volume 7 for both channels, and volume/gain on 7 for master. I had all bass, mid and treble at zero, did not use at all. Chorus and reverb also on zero, you don't need it with this guitar, the beautiful solid maple horns and the light yet strong soundboard does it all naturally, no artificial sweetener needed!
I think Yamaha needs to consider this combo, and I bet they have, these are direct quotes from them: "certainly unique", "very intriguing" and "very interesting" hmm. 🤔 😎
I worked for a Japanese firm before, and have worked with Japanese people for decades, I know their methods. I know their Kaizen practices, and their Continuous Improvement systems. I could work for Yamaha, and show them how to do this, or at least be a consultant. My REW data will be sent to them, and I have other surprises. I am obviously putting them at the top of my list, they would be perfect for this. They could pull it off, and put it in production, given their track record.
JJ I also appreciate your comment about an acoustic guitar trying to compete with a brass horn section, no way is right! And your comments about the video showing the real deal are spot on, that is what I need. Oh wait, use horns in the guitar to compete with brass horns? Makes perfect sense! 🤣 Also stay tuned for the video, it is moving up my list now that I have some good REW measurements from my real guitar. The last measurements were from my Taylor played through the horn body, and my new results are encouraging. I was a little worried that the Taylor/horn combo would be better that my real guitar, but that is not the case. Actually they are both pretty damn good, so very happy about that!
So coach, yep the Yamaha Transacoustic is their current technology. I would not buy it, just not my preference. That said I think other people will buy it, maybe a very high percentage of guitar players like it, I get that. When you are running a large corporation, you go for the bucks, you have to, or you can get in trouble. Now I really like Yamaha guitars, just acoustic is good enough for me. I am especially impressed with how affordable they are, mass production (but this is quality mass production, not garbage) can do some great things for a business.
IF you are into the chorus and reverb sound, I have not doubt they are great. I also noted earlier I think the Tonewood Amp is a nice design, IF you are into that sound. One of my earlier posts had a PDF with a review from somebody else, boy he did not like the Tonewood Amp, to each their own.
I also think Yamaha may have reviewed my design and can't help but think, hmm, maybe this would work with our current system. Of course it would, I suggested this to them. My Roland amp that I use in my design, has reverb and chorus, I just don't use it.
In fact for my REW measurements, my best sound was volume 7 for both channels, and volume/gain on 7 for master. I had all bass, mid and treble at zero, did not use at all. Chorus and reverb also on zero, you don't need it with this guitar, the beautiful solid maple horns and the light yet strong soundboard does it all naturally, no artificial sweetener needed!
I think Yamaha needs to consider this combo, and I bet they have, these are direct quotes from them: "certainly unique", "very intriguing" and "very interesting" hmm. 🤔 😎
I worked for a Japanese firm before, and have worked with Japanese people for decades, I know their methods. I know their Kaizen practices, and their Continuous Improvement systems. I could work for Yamaha, and show them how to do this, or at least be a consultant. My REW data will be sent to them, and I have other surprises. I am obviously putting them at the top of my list, they would be perfect for this. They could pull it off, and put it in production, given their track record.
JJ I also appreciate your comment about an acoustic guitar trying to compete with a brass horn section, no way is right! And your comments about the video showing the real deal are spot on, that is what I need. Oh wait, use horns in the guitar to compete with brass horns? Makes perfect sense! 🤣 Also stay tuned for the video, it is moving up my list now that I have some good REW measurements from my real guitar. The last measurements were from my Taylor played through the horn body, and my new results are encouraging. I was a little worried that the Taylor/horn combo would be better that my real guitar, but that is not the case. Actually they are both pretty damn good, so very happy about that!
Hello all - REW data attached, I am very happy with the results. The last significant REW data I posted (a looong time ago) was playing my Taylor through the folded horn body, really good but not the real thing, a test.
This is my first post of REW data with the real Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar.
When this guitar is good, man I love it, and that is usually the case.
But when it is out of tune, the damn huge soundboard puts the out of tune sound right in your face, not kidding, so noticeable.
But of course when it is rocking (and that is the usual state) it puts the great sound right in your face! Very consistent.
Note that 120 dB is just not feasible with this guitar body, and that is VERY loud. I don't even want to listen to headphones or a stereo that loud!
This guitar performs beautifully at 90 dB acoustically, 100 dB with horns not turned up much is sweet, 105 with horns is great! 110 with horns is rocking! 115 with horns is tolerable, but man you are getting close to the edge. 120 dB is crazy, too much! Feedback bad! I bet driver excursion is bad also, but I don't know. Distortion sets in (have not measured, but I can sure hear it).
Anyway take a peek please, and let me know what you think, let me have it! Let's Make the Acoustic Guitar Rock!
This is my first post of REW data with the real Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar.
When this guitar is good, man I love it, and that is usually the case.
But when it is out of tune, the damn huge soundboard puts the out of tune sound right in your face, not kidding, so noticeable.
But of course when it is rocking (and that is the usual state) it puts the great sound right in your face! Very consistent.
Note that 120 dB is just not feasible with this guitar body, and that is VERY loud. I don't even want to listen to headphones or a stereo that loud!
This guitar performs beautifully at 90 dB acoustically, 100 dB with horns not turned up much is sweet, 105 with horns is great! 110 with horns is rocking! 115 with horns is tolerable, but man you are getting close to the edge. 120 dB is crazy, too much! Feedback bad! I bet driver excursion is bad also, but I don't know. Distortion sets in (have not measured, but I can sure hear it).
Anyway take a peek please, and let me know what you think, let me have it! Let's Make the Acoustic Guitar Rock!
There is 10dB or more difference in the "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Acoustic Only – No Horns" in the sample comparing it to itself amplified and to the Taylor. The "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Acoustic Only" appears to be far brighter than the Taylor or the amplified version.
Without knowing how loud you played the "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Acoustic Only – No Horns" compared to the "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Horns Volume 7", not much to be gathered, other than the 15-27dB level change at an unknown distance and mic orientation in an unknown acoustic environment at a random moment of playing.
Without knowing how loud you played the "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Acoustic Only – No Horns" compared to the "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar – Horns Volume 7", not much to be gathered, other than the 15-27dB level change at an unknown distance and mic orientation in an unknown acoustic environment at a random moment of playing.
Thanks much for reviewing Art, yeah I know, I was pretty excited last night, then played my guitar for at least two more hours after posting.
Here is more info: Every REW session used my new miniDSP measurement mic (calibrated), at a distance of one meter, mic pointed directly at the soundboard sound hole. I played the same exact song for every recording, same chord progression, same length of song, same strumming style. I tried to strum with the same amount of force for every recording (I know that part is not perfect). In fact I usually strum with less force on volume 7 with horns. Same room, same sitting position, same mic placement, I tried to make this a true apples to apples comparison, otherwise it would not be very reliable data.
I am going to do a Kaizen for Yamaha, the Japanese love that, their methods are very scientific, and very data driven. I will add the above info, plus of course all REW data, maybe even room measurements, mic placement, mic distance, amount of force on strings, consistency with chords and songs...basically what you are saying I need to do. 🤣 You have written many Kaizens I am sure Art, you probably just call it a different name!
The email header will be "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar Kaizen For Yamaha", hopefully will grab their attention again. Plus maybe I should add some Yamaha Transacoustic Guitar Data. I have seen their Frequency Output, it falls way off at about 80-100 Hz, just like every other acoustic guitar. The harmonics also start to drop considerably at about 5 kHz. Very similar to my Taylor.
Oh wait, my FHAG on volume 7 does not do that (at least not near as much), and it has far more power. I will post the full Kaizen here when complete, stay tuned!
Here is more info: Every REW session used my new miniDSP measurement mic (calibrated), at a distance of one meter, mic pointed directly at the soundboard sound hole. I played the same exact song for every recording, same chord progression, same length of song, same strumming style. I tried to strum with the same amount of force for every recording (I know that part is not perfect). In fact I usually strum with less force on volume 7 with horns. Same room, same sitting position, same mic placement, I tried to make this a true apples to apples comparison, otherwise it would not be very reliable data.
I am going to do a Kaizen for Yamaha, the Japanese love that, their methods are very scientific, and very data driven. I will add the above info, plus of course all REW data, maybe even room measurements, mic placement, mic distance, amount of force on strings, consistency with chords and songs...basically what you are saying I need to do. 🤣 You have written many Kaizens I am sure Art, you probably just call it a different name!
The email header will be "Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar Kaizen For Yamaha", hopefully will grab their attention again. Plus maybe I should add some Yamaha Transacoustic Guitar Data. I have seen their Frequency Output, it falls way off at about 80-100 Hz, just like every other acoustic guitar. The harmonics also start to drop considerably at about 5 kHz. Very similar to my Taylor.
Oh wait, my FHAG on volume 7 does not do that (at least not near as much), and it has far more power. I will post the full Kaizen here when complete, stay tuned!
I hope they find sincerity in your presentation. Of course another possible way in is to speak audio engineering in a credible way. You may want to look into the sweep capabilities of REW, if not a Pink noise driven analysis.
Somewhere in this thread I believe I posted the FR of Yamaha's SLG200 "silent" nylon string instrument, with Pink driven into the bridge with a Dayton transducer. The FR was interesting, as I recall it went flat out to 1kHz, then rolled off in a consistent db/decade way. That would be something at least some of their staff would understand - it's the FR of their piezo pickup and on board electronics.
I'd assume they'd want to know that, with whatever pickup system you're using. Again for the amplifier. Again for the horn speakers themselves. Then the FR of the played instrument would begin to make more sense to their engineering staff.
Thanks JJ - I did a sweep and pink noise earlier, as you suggested, can add that also. The pickups and amp will all be included, you got it, plus drivers, I can really load it up with data/info, plus I will check out your Yamaha FR. I do have that for their standard acoustic guitar showing how bracing changes/improves the FR.
Joe,
Going with the Kaizen "make problems visible":
The noise floor varies by 45dB between traces, what does that do for comparison reliability 🤔?
Ki o tsukete,
Art
So sine frequency sweep is the gold standard when testing loudspeaker FR. I think I mentioned previously having a reference speaker, with a known / published FR - on hand to vet your measurement setup. https://www.ebay.com/itm/145170579549 would probably be appropriate if its in as good condition as they say; I'm sure Yamaha will know what it's supposed to do FR wise - particularly if you stop the measurement sweep at, say, 5 - 10 kHz.
OTOH, Chicago is a big place and I'm sure you can find some Yamaha monitor speakers for sale inexpensively. All you need is one, unless they do double duty in your studio setup.
Unsure why your plots even have data at 7.5, 9, 10, 20 , 30 Hz. 40 is the low E on a bass guitar; I'm pretty sure your instrument makes no sound from 40 on down. Start your analysis above 60, as any AC line frequency showing up through your equipment isnt needed to be displayed. An inappropriate frequency range in the analysis is a dead giveaway and will take focus off the point you're trying to make; that these horns go loud and sound good.
I think you could sweep from 70 to 5kHz and that would tell you all you'd need to know. Show the Yamaha monitor with a 5W level sine sweep input, then show your guitar body horns; each measured the same way. Play your new guitar through the monitor speaker, then through it's own horns, measured the same way. See how one can keep dropping back to the Yamaha monitor as reference in these measurement efforts?