The response at a few cm is going to be different to further out because of box dimensions.
If 2 boxed speakers are EQed to have the same gain at 10cm from the driver, the larger box will tend to be louder at 1m, 10m and so on (until the reflections fade).
Not to mention horn effects. Most speakers basically have a 180deg conical section, with following sections +90deg +90deg -90deg. Even in deep bass, it seems like people unwittingly cheat by ignoring volume displacement.
Music halls are built from the ground up to be acoustically correct. Unless there's a major incompetency by the architect or builder they'll be fine.
All the other examples you give only care about one thing - intelligibility.
Crutchfield is about mid/hi-fi where minute differences make a big deal to people. These minute differences will be altered by whatever speakers/headphones you're using. If on the other hand intelligibility is the goal, a Bluetooth soundbar is good enough - no need for crutchfield to even exist. Buy the cheapest speaker on amazon and be done with it.
Several years ago, I was looking for headphones with a similar goal. As a diy speaker designer/builder, I wanted to find some really good sounding headphones for a "reference sound" that I could compare to speakers when I build them. Even though it may not be as technically based as your search, what I went through might be useful to you.
The constraints I had were
First, I attended a "Head-Fi" meet, where I was able to try out 12 or 15 different headphones (mostly mid to high end). I took notes on what I liked and didn't like, and then picked the one that I liked the best as my reference - even though it was well out of my price range.
Next, I searched the web to find 8 or 10 different headphones that were within my budget.
Then I checked out InnerFideltiy, which has a huge collection of headphone measurements compiled by Tyls Hertsens. He compiled a tremendous amount of work, with consistent measurements. This is now available on Stereophile.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/innerfidelity-headphone-measurements
Using the measurement file for my favorite as reference, I then compared measurement files for the 8 or 10 picks from my budget list and ranked them accordingly.
Finally, I found a retail outlet that specialized in headphones, where I could try them out. I brought my own cd with a variety of tracks of my own choosing. They had 4 or 5 headphones on my list and suggested a few others in my budget. They set me up in a room with a cd player and headphone amp. Some sounded great but were not comfortable to wear. After about an hour and a half, I ended up walking out of the store with a pair that I am still happy with today.
Of course, headphone sound has differences from in-room speaker sound. But a good set of headphones can help easily identify problem areas - especially when developing a crossover.
Hope this helps. I found the InnerFidelity measurements to be very informative.
The constraints I had were
- budget
- good sound (accurate, articulate, etc.)
- easy-to-listen-to (not fatiguing)
- comfortable enough to wear for an hour or more at a time
First, I attended a "Head-Fi" meet, where I was able to try out 12 or 15 different headphones (mostly mid to high end). I took notes on what I liked and didn't like, and then picked the one that I liked the best as my reference - even though it was well out of my price range.
Next, I searched the web to find 8 or 10 different headphones that were within my budget.
Then I checked out InnerFideltiy, which has a huge collection of headphone measurements compiled by Tyls Hertsens. He compiled a tremendous amount of work, with consistent measurements. This is now available on Stereophile.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/innerfidelity-headphone-measurements
Using the measurement file for my favorite as reference, I then compared measurement files for the 8 or 10 picks from my budget list and ranked them accordingly.
Finally, I found a retail outlet that specialized in headphones, where I could try them out. I brought my own cd with a variety of tracks of my own choosing. They had 4 or 5 headphones on my list and suggested a few others in my budget. They set me up in a room with a cd player and headphone amp. Some sounded great but were not comfortable to wear. After about an hour and a half, I ended up walking out of the store with a pair that I am still happy with today.
Of course, headphone sound has differences from in-room speaker sound. But a good set of headphones can help easily identify problem areas - especially when developing a crossover.
Hope this helps. I found the InnerFidelity measurements to be very informative.
The issue is that 95% of Crutchfield customers are not using reference equipment. They're most likely using el-cheapo earbuds or Beats headphones. Both of those are rather bad references. I'm sure the people using crutchfield's tool think they're getting an accurate result/representation but maybe that's all that matters.
Thanks for the run down of your process, Dave. Do you remember what sort of sound you were listening for? What was the "reference sound" you wanted?
I can't agree. I spent a couple of years modelling architectural spaces in CATT Acoustics for a firm of consulting engineers who designed and specified, and oversaw the engineering, building and of performance measurement and acceptance of acoustic performance spaces. No sensible client is going to make the final payment on a performance space without verification that is meets the specified acoustic performance targets, and no designer is going to commit to allowing the builder to go ahead without the confidence of an auralisation.
I used speech examples above because they are easier for people to conceptualise. There is a correlation between the ability to hear the nuances of the individual first violins in an orchestra for example, etc, and the intelligibility of speech, it is the quality of clarity.
I wanted something clear and detailed, good balance throughout the spectrum, with no harshness to my ears, along with fit and comfort on my head. I ended up with Sennheiser HD600's. The HD650's are similar, but a bit more bass than my ears care for.
My favorite at the HeadFi meet was the HiFiMan HE-5 or HE-500 (don't recall which now). Some of the others that I auditioned were the AKG K550, Audeze LCD-2, Denon AH-D2000, Beyerdynamics T70, Sennheiser HD650. Don't recall the rest right now. 🤔
Your results may vary. 😉
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May I ask what the clients used to listen to the expected result? Was it bluetooth earbuds? Was it a tv soundbar? Because that's what the majority of crutchfield's customers are using. I've never heard either make anything sound like anything but terrible noise so hearing nuances and delicate differences between two speakers is a joke.
It is SE, with custom ONetics transformers (now unobtainium) mounted underneath top plate. The circuit was designed by Rene' Jaeger, tailored to the 300 ohm load of the HD600's. The large tubes in the rear are 0D3 v.r. tubes, and the triodes in front are 5842. I laid out the components and built the chassis. The top plate is aluminum, the wood base is padauk with walnut edges.
Very happy with the combination of amp and headphones. 👍
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Not if Crutchfield's clients follow their instructions, or use the evaluation equipment that Crutchfield offer for use. You can read how it works here: https://www.crutchfield.com/speakercompare/
Yes there are limitations in the evaluation process, which I've addressed in previous posts.
Thanks I'll take a look. Is there any documentation on what parameters they used other than basic FR of the listening device?
Apart from some marketing bumf I couldn't find much technical info, either on Crutchfield's site or in the scientific literature.
I went over to listen and picked a set of headphones that they had on their list. What surprised me was how similar speakers of the same size/style sounded. There was some difference in tonal balance, most notably the tweeter levels, but not anywhere as huge a difference as expected. Power response? Is the anechoic setting making them sound more alike than they would in a normal room? The recordings are very dry.
What I could hear very little of was the sense of space. But that is mostly a fault of the headphones, they just don't do space well. The lack of strong reflections must also be suppressing the spacial clues, too. I listened to the Rossini piece then several of my own tracks that I know well.
What I could hear very little of was the sense of space. But that is mostly a fault of the headphones, they just don't do space well. The lack of strong reflections must also be suppressing the spacial clues, too. I listened to the Rossini piece then several of my own tracks that I know well.
Yeah it's the spatial cues and imaging and whatnot that I can't comprehend coming through a set of headphones for example. How is a wide baffle multi driver speaker going to image differently from a narrow baffle coax? I don't see that coming through an HD600 (which I own and rate highly). I especially can't see an accurate representation coming through a set crappy headphones like Bose or Beats or whatever. I don't care how well you compensate for the FR of can/speaker, if they're technically inadequate, you've lost the battle before you ever started. I'll keep an open mind though - I'll try their tool with my best gear and with a phone and earbuds and see what I hear. Maybe it's magic.
Thank you for the responses. I took a look at the HD600 on rtings.com. The frequency response not as flat as I would like. I did find an interesting site that audio compares MICS: https://www.audiotestkitchen.com/
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Headphone responses should NOT be flat! They should be closer to the Harmon curve.
Again, you are attempting to evaluate speakers from the wrong end of the stick. Much of the sound of loudspeakers comes from the environment, totally missing with headphones. Two different worlds. If both were perfect, they would sound different.
Again, you are attempting to evaluate speakers from the wrong end of the stick. Much of the sound of loudspeakers comes from the environment, totally missing with headphones. Two different worlds. If both were perfect, they would sound different.
Yes, the environment is missing with headphones. So is the crossfeed. But phase and distortion are generally good, distortion decent. The hope (I think) is to find a pair of cans that have a neutral tonal balance on your ears, and use them as a reference.
Keep in mind that Harmon is a preference curve not a flat FR. And it's not what everyone prefers but what most people prefer.