planet10 said:
dave,
It makes the crossover simple, but the fe103's will produce hardly any bass below 100Hz in the cabinet size he's looking at.
He could try looking for a good cheap midbass that doesn't have any harsh artifacts at higher frequencies (there must be some available - I've got a pair of Paradigm 5" that are pretty good). Then you don't need any crossover except for your tweeter - and you can then get a nice cap to roll it off with.
And, with MDF vs ply, both are not good for your health if you breath in the dust. Both have resonances, but in different places. Ply looks much better without any extra treatment (paint/veneer), MDF looks like...well, MDF. MDF is easier to shape, but practice with ply makes perfect.
mattthegamer463, if youre designing your own for a first attempt, then we can offer you advice, but it will differ depending on our particular preference. Planet10, for example, likes full-range drivers - and he knows his stuff. Other will offer advice regarding multi-driver set-ups. And it looks like you're not in the market for an active set-up (ie. more than one amplifier).
But I'd suggest you go for a kit or an existing design. They both take the worry out of designing your own crossover to get the best out of your drivers (or, for the single driver speaker - offer a design that provides good bass from speakers that traditionally are difficult to work with for this). As the stuff over here in Aus is not what you can get over there, I'm not sure I'd be any help. Although I always thought the Stig Erik Tangen's Gnurk would be a good build as he's done all the hard yards...
You clearly have some modeling skills! And yes, crossovers are scary--and the more you know about them, the scarier they get (for a while, anyway).mattthegamer463 said:
Anyway, since you like to build things and you have really good modeling skills, why not take a proven design and build a cool enclosure for it?
These will really git'er done for about the least amount of money you can spend in DIY... and they should smoke just about anything at the big box stores--let alone the Minimus 7.
Curt C's TriTrix TM (these'll probably be around $120 for all drivers & crossover parts)
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/TritrixMT_pg_1.html
Roman Bednarek's Microbe (I forget the total parts count, but it should be under $150)
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe/microbe.html
The Orient Express (about $90 for the pair. DIY doesn't get much cheaper)
http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-orientexpress
I can pretty much guarantee any of those designs will all play lower than the Fostex or Pioneers or any other full-range, despite their small enclosure size. And you can get pretty creative with the cabinet shape, just as long as you keep the front baffle size the same, and retain the internal volume.
Undefinition said:
Indeed that is likely... but most of the music is in the midrange where they won't do as well ... and even the least expensive of those stretches the budget up to FE127. The largest of those boxes gets pretty close to being Fonken sized, and the smallest larger than the mFonken. And both of those faire pretty well in some elevated circles...
So many choices, so little time.
Did we ever find out what kind of amplifier as that will play a big role?
dave
Undefinition said:
We have an MTM on the go using the same tweeter and the next size up of those woofers -- mostly to use up a box that has a lot of effort put into it.
The Silver Flute is a very nice woofer, we are playing with those, but in conjunction with the Jordan J6T/Alpair 5 or the Fostex FF85k. High in the queue is an MTM with XO in the 350-400 Hz range.
dave
mattthegamer463 said:
Low damping, low power, makes the Fostex even more attractive, and if you go with a 2-way, trying to keep the XO as simple as possible.
If you go with the Pioneer, the tweeter that GYChang used and a simple 2uF cap as XO would be what i'd suggest.... ~$40 in parts.
dave
Looking at all these nice little speakers, I've noticed one rather large problem.
They're all around a foot deep, which is a problem, I've realized. My desk is just under two feet deep, and I want the speakers to go next to my monitor, and my keyboard is on the desk in front of the monitor. This leaves me with about a maximum of about 7 inches of depth to work with, and about 7 or 8 in the width department. Height is the only place where I have total freedom, but anything over 18 inches would be getting too high. I'm not sure how I can work around this, since apparently beautiful sound requires depth.
The Zaph Audio 4" Mini is the closest thing in terms of dimensions, maybe using its internal volume but making it taller would work?
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
They're all around a foot deep, which is a problem, I've realized. My desk is just under two feet deep, and I want the speakers to go next to my monitor, and my keyboard is on the desk in front of the monitor. This leaves me with about a maximum of about 7 inches of depth to work with, and about 7 or 8 in the width department. Height is the only place where I have total freedom, but anything over 18 inches would be getting too high. I'm not sure how I can work around this, since apparently beautiful sound requires depth.
The Zaph Audio 4" Mini is the closest thing in terms of dimensions, maybe using its internal volume but making it taller would work?
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
Matt,
I haven't heard these, but I do have a Tang Band pair of speakers and am very happy with them. These look appropriate as far as size and it looks like they can be built for right around $100 US or less.
http://www.zillaaudio.com/tb-1320-bamboo.htm
Mike
I haven't heard these, but I do have a Tang Band pair of speakers and am very happy with them. These look appropriate as far as size and it looks like they can be built for right around $100 US or less.
http://www.zillaaudio.com/tb-1320-bamboo.htm
Mike
mattthegamer463 said:
With that amp, I'm not sure that you'd get much joy from those Zaph Audio speakers, as they may not work well with the 4th order crossover. The simpler the better with a low damping, low power amp. In fact, I'd suggest looking seriously at what Planet10 suggests - the 2 x Pioneer + tweeter or the Fostex on its own or maybe something else.
The problem still might be fitting it into your space constraints - tall means that you may generate unwanted resonance within your speaker enclosure (think of speaking through a pipe) which makes its way out through the speaker cone. If you pulled your desk out a few inches from the wall you could make the speakers a few inches deeper - is that an option?
Mate, my advice for what it's worth is to go with a 2 way (2 driver) not MTM, proven system.
That way you can afford to spend more on the drivers and get better results.
Going ultra low end and having to do it again later is poor economics.
Zaph has some good designs at the " low end" they sound great.
It sounds like you are after a pair of small monitors.
Dont be decieved, well designed well made small speakers at close range give good bass.
They just get lost in large rooms at high volumes.
That way you can afford to spend more on the drivers and get better results.
Going ultra low end and having to do it again later is poor economics.
Zaph has some good designs at the " low end" they sound great.
It sounds like you are after a pair of small monitors.
Dont be decieved, well designed well made small speakers at close range give good bass.
They just get lost in large rooms at high volumes.
@ Cloth ears
I can't move the desk unfortunately because that would require me re-arrange the entire room. The way its situated in my dorm is in a notch in the wall where the furnace juts out so I can't move it.
I have exams starting in a few days so unfortunately I won't have time to keep working on this stuff until the christmas break. Thanks for the help and I'll be working on stuff whenever I can, but this will be essentially on hold for the next little while.
Dave, do you have any links to places that sell Fostex FE103s or FE127s for cheap like you said? That would be great, thanks a bunch.
I can't move the desk unfortunately because that would require me re-arrange the entire room. The way its situated in my dorm is in a notch in the wall where the furnace juts out so I can't move it.
I have exams starting in a few days so unfortunately I won't have time to keep working on this stuff until the christmas break. Thanks for the help and I'll be working on stuff whenever I can, but this will be essentially on hold for the next little while.
Dave, do you have any links to places that sell Fostex FE103s or FE127s for cheap like you said? That would be great, thanks a bunch.
mattthegamer463 said:
The prices i quoted were from Madisound (76.40 / pr for FE103, 90/pr for FE127)... the price for the Pionner + Dayton tweeter was an estimate based on what i recall from Parts Express ($8/theeter, $12 for Pioneer & a buck or so for cap.
Just checked... Pioneers have gone up to $14
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-010
Tweeter i already knew went up from $5 to $8
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-025
Cap $1/50 each
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-414
Total = (14+8+1.5)x 2 = $47 + shipping and taxes
dave
Matt,
If you're going to use the Pioneers, you could do worse than putting them in a 6 litre (I'm only good with metric) enclosure, with a single 5cm (or 2-inch) diameter port that is 12.5cm (5 inches) long.
The 6 litres is internal volume and does not include the driver volume (if you're using half-inch thick wood, that would be about 0.2litres) or port volume (about 0.35 litres).
If you make it with half inch boards, that makes the external dimensions 14 x 20.5 x 32.5cm (or 5.5 x 8 x 13 inches) - give or take. Port should be 2-inch plumbers pipe.
Should look something like the attached (lousy drawing - I know). Once you've built it, listen. There will be things you may not like, and things you do. Then it'll be time for your second attempt (there is always a second attempt). You may even use the same driver(s), just want to change the box a little (or a lot).
If you're going to use the Pioneers, you could do worse than putting them in a 6 litre (I'm only good with metric) enclosure, with a single 5cm (or 2-inch) diameter port that is 12.5cm (5 inches) long.
The 6 litres is internal volume and does not include the driver volume (if you're using half-inch thick wood, that would be about 0.2litres) or port volume (about 0.35 litres).
If you make it with half inch boards, that makes the external dimensions 14 x 20.5 x 32.5cm (or 5.5 x 8 x 13 inches) - give or take. Port should be 2-inch plumbers pipe.
Should look something like the attached (lousy drawing - I know). Once you've built it, listen. There will be things you may not like, and things you do. Then it'll be time for your second attempt (there is always a second attempt). You may even use the same driver(s), just want to change the box a little (or a lot).
Attachments
Moondog55 said:
I'm sure he used Google SketchUp (free version available)
We have shoehorned an FE127 into a 4,5 litre (net internal) box with very good results (a set with fully done up drivers were preferred by an LS3/5A owner)
http://p10hifi.net/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/mFonken-0v999-map.pdf
dave
Moondog55 said:
I used an even older method - cut 'n' paste (look at the first MTM's posted in the thread). I didn't have the drivers available for sketch-up, and I only wanted to give an idea of the shape. For my own designs, I use Excel (believe it or not) as I can get it to adjust the shape/size depending on the volumes I give it.I've steered clear of bracing , stiffening, damping, stuffing, etc. as they can get 'in the way' of a first build. They are the questions that I believe you should answer when the heading is "Second Speaker Project". IMO the first one should be simple and that gives the taste of nirvana (I'm sounding like a drug-pusher here).
I'm not sure what improvements you can make to the box, but as the components are $47US, I'm sure Matt could afford a small sheet of good half-inch ply, some good glue and 10 inches of 2" pipe for under $100US in total.
mattthegamer463 said:
Hi,
"Appearently beautiful sound" requires depth away from the
rear wall, once you get close you may as well minimise depth.
So what you suggest is very reasonable.
Near field and far field are very different, for a few valve watts.
For farfield you need a large efficient speaker if you want
decent volume capability combined with bass extension.
For nearfield a coherent single driver in a low diffraction enclosure
does appeal, noting for small drivers excursion versus efficiency
becomes a critical issue if used full range, no subwoofers.
See : http://www.zaphaudio.com/smalltest/
Efficiency needs to be balanced against bass power handling
and maximum bass levels, the Aura NS3 is worth investigating.
/sreten.- Status
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