First time Lascala build advice.

[mcdaniels]

Hello Everyone,

I've been reading on this forum and the klipsch forum regarding a diy la scala build. I have read many opinions on the klipschorn, la scala, jubilee, belle, voltis. Even some jbl builds, m2, 4350.

I plan on running an active eq/crossover, and an active powered t-line sub.

It seems a 2 way sytem is very popular (1 horn 1 bass bin), I will go 3 if you guys suggest.

I need some advice.

For the top should i go klipsch k510, k55m, or jbl 2430k D2?

D2 Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver

KLIPSCH LA SCALA TWO K-55-M HORN DRIVERS PLUS HORNS !!!! | eBay

What driver, what horn?

For the la scala bass bin, what driver? Jbl or klipsch/Crites?

Envision 3 stacks, sub box same shape as la scala, la scala stacked on top sub, compression driver on top of that. Modern looking la scala sitting on top of sub.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[picowallspeaker]

I guess you don't know what la scala is
BTW It's a theater in Milan, Italy Theater+ orchestra

 

[mcdaniels]

That's fine...pick on the new guy.

 

[altie]

Could be that most of the La Scala-using folks are over on community.klipsch.com. Too bad as I think it's an interesting project. I'd recommend looking into the JBL 2220 or similar predecessors of it. I think the D-130 or E-130 may have had underhung motors like the 2220 which would make them very, very low distortion within their narrow operating range of excursion. They are also extremely efficient - 101dB/1W/1m before you stick them in a horn.

You may be able to find those drivers cheap locally or get some needing a recone - I think JBL might still make recone kits or at least there are enough out there to last, but if you choose to go that route, check my assumption that you can get the recone kit first.

 

[freddi]

JBL 2220 would give up alot of bass below cutoff vs K33. I used 2220H in the early 1990s in my K-horns and it was a tradeoff I migh not want with La Scala and its short path.


As a traditional 3-way - sometimes Altec 511 can be found cheap - I think the inexpensive (~$35) D270Ph PRV horn driver with screw-bolt on adapter would probably make an acceptable midhorn. (I've run K55V and University SAHF drivers on 511 as a midhorn and that sounded fine.)

it would be good to brace La Scala's mouth as the "flapping" of those sides introduces some modulation effects.

Hopefully there will be some help at the Klipsch Technical/Modifications forum. Ask them if there are any cheap midhorn solutioins for La Scala. (just the horn)

A low price 3-way build should be pretty good. It would be good to have a sizable midhorn and have it mounted on a good size baffle to damp ringing and support the wavefront. There should be suitable inexpensive tweeters or get a small compression driver and horn.to make one. The tweeter could be moved back towards the midhorn driver plane to improve blend and time response.


This is on one of those funky little horns. It should do better with K400/511 size.

I'd imagine a 4KHz crossover to the tweeter horn would be doable.

The bass driver could be a lower Qts speaker than K33 type and that can cive somewehat more sensitivity but as there's usually less xmax, a loss of ultimate loudness below horn cutoff. (La Scale type rolloff below ~110Hz outdoors in half space). When a low Qts old school horn driver is employed, back chamber volume may be reduced to make it play flatter to cutoff and have less excursion below system rolloff.

Look at my Peavey FH1's response outdoors

La Scala's nominal 58 liter back chamber can be vented with tradeoffs when using lower Qts drivers. The late DJK (Dennis Kleitsch) came up with a vented La Scala mod which used the upper horn box volume in conjunction with the regular back chamber
and tuned it pretty low. That was to be treated like a regular 6th order bass reflex using an underdamped 2nd order highpass filter to provide ~6dB boost at the vent tuning frequency. That along with room gain could provide some semblance of low bass.

PWK was pretty crafty about squeaking balanced performance with the K33 spec and about 54 ounce magnet slug.

Below are some sims of a vented La Scala with K33 spec. You can see how the added 2 cubic foot of back chamber
volume affects things plus that of active EQ

 

[LineSource]

Have you researched the newer coaxial compression drivers like BMS 4594ND and B&C DCX464 which cover 18kHz - 400Hz? I like the forward design challenges they present for SPL, room effects, directivity, and tone, which both measure well and please complex human hearing. With this wide coaxial frequency range, both an 18" woofer in a floor-ceiling MLTL, and an 18" sealed volume woofer with DSP equalization to the listener offer options for the mains. Subwoofers should be positioned and equalized to smooth room effects. Attemping to solve room effects by equalizing the mains can only make the sound worst.

 

[GM]

Greets!

IF the HR sim someone posted is fairly accurate, the K33E is as good as it gets WRT horn loading, though no experience with any vintage Klipsch speakers beyond not being impressed with them overall.

Mids/HF horn wise, only WGs interest me, but a 400 Hz XO would be somewhat deeper than the mid bass horn, though recommend a mouth size ~the same size as the mid bass loaded with one of these new 3-400 Hz XO coax compression drivers seems a nice upgrade to Klipsch and keep it basically a two way.

Lacking compression loaded sub bass horns, 'subs' ideally need to be servo controlled to best match to a compression horn.

GM

 

[freddi]

Ik should qualify the 2220 statement - if not driven hard in the deep bass it would work pretty well. They are getting old - the ferrite version might be in better shape.

LS in the sim below looks pretty good to 110Hz vs a sealed box the size of LS's back chamber. K33E has nearly 8mm of excursion while 2220 maybe 2.2 (?)

to my way of thinking a LS knockoff (3 way) drivers should cost no more than $200 per side - probably less if a 15" Eminence not too far from K33 comes up for sale.

 

[mcdaniels]

Could be that most of the La Scala-using folks are over on community.klipsch.com. Too bad as I think it's an interesting project. I'd recommend looking into the JBL 2220 or similar predecessors of it. I think the D-130 or E-130 may have had underhung motors like the 2220 which would make them very, very low distortion within their narrow operating range of excursion. They are also extremely efficient - 101dB/1W/1m before you stick them in a horn.

Thanks altie, I have not looked into the 2220, will certainly check it out. My goal with the exception of the sub is efficiency, running on low wattage tube or class A. Ill dee how it pairs up with that D2 compression driver.

You may be able to find those drivers cheap locally or get some needing a recone - I think JBL might still make recone kits or at least there are enough out there to last, but if you choose to go that route, check my assumption that you can get the recone kit first.

 

[mcdaniels]

JBL 2220hj specs for future reference.

Spec sheet
https://warehousesound.com/r/jbl2220.pdf

 

[mcdaniels]

Thanks Freddi! Great insight and info.

I have heard of the PRV, can't beat the price. I'm cool with buy once, cry once. This build is replacing a 20 year old set of paradigms 90p v2. I want to experience some of that horn magic and keep these a long time. So, I'm ok with spending the money on the jbls or klipsch if i need to.

I read the thread over at klipsch community regarding 2 way or 3 way. What is everyone's opinion on that these days? The jbl m2/4350 at $15k is a 2 way. Im not sure of the technicals, but it uses some stepped crossover on the compression driver, like 750hz - 9k, then changes 9k up on that 2430 compression driver.

Is there a smaller version of the FH1? I know it's simpler to build, but huge, it uses an 18" right?

The side bracing is a great point, volti vittora hides the bracing with grill cloth.

As far as the port mod, wanted to keep the boxes stackable and seperate.

 

[mcdaniels]

Have you researched the newer coaxial compression drivers like BMS 4594ND and B&C DCX464 which cover 18kHz - 400Hz? I like the forward design challenges they present for SPL, room effects, directivity, and tone, which both measure well and please complex human hearing. With this wide coaxial frequency range, both an 18" woofer in a floor-ceiling MLTL, and an 18" sealed volume woofer with DSP equalization to the listener offer options for the mains. Subwoofers should be positioned and equalized to smooth room effects. Attemping to solve room effects by equalizing the mains can only make the sound worst.

That BMS is sweet!

Overview

 

[freddi]

if it were two way with an old school Altec 511 horn - I'd might prefer a 3 way as 511 has a fair amount of acoustic EQ eq on-axis (and subsequent dullness off axis at HF) vs an equalized waveguide that more closely follows a driver's power response. imo a 511 makes an OK midhorn for a 3-ways Klipsch style system.

I'm not much help as have only played with a few horn and driver.

PWK's "Belle" can look pretty and has less depth than LS - that means less midhorn depth unless it sticks out
past the rear of the W-bin.

FWIW I have a baby Belle for 12" driver I need to still load and play - built by Triticum Audio

 

[homebuilder]

horn/combo

mcdaniels:

Just out of curiosity, what is your intended use? Primarily music, or home theater?

I've read thousands of opinions about 2 ways, or 3 ways (or more) on this site for more than a decade, and there just never seems to be a consensus. Other than the fact that it is easier to build a 2 way, than a 3 way, and get it right.

When people start with the assumption that they are building a subwoofer (or several) I always wonder what the use is. Me, I'm a 2 channel guy. And there isn't much to listen to with my favorite music that is below 40 hz. Yes, I have subs though. In my eyes, you are talking about building a 3 or 4 way. If that is the case, you might consider getting a good woofer/horn bin that will play down to about 35 hertz, and get a really good mid-bass driver. (Cone or horn loaded) Top that off with a top end of your choice.

Do you really need the subs? Not questioning your decision, just wondering. When I've listened to speakers of the type you are discussing, I never felt any need for a sub. Could save a lot of money that could be put into the rest of the design.

Hey, good luck with your project! It will be interesting to hear your choices, and see how this turns out.

 

[freddi]

Here's the graph PWK sent to me showing La Scala (K447) vs an Altec A7 (plus k-horn penciled in)

when close to boundaries - maybe F6~50Hz ? I don't know how he positioned LS.

Here's a rough 1 pi vs 2 pi sim

 

[mcdaniels]

75% music while playing pool...occasional movie.

Want a simple setup, probably REM ADI2 DAC, tube amp or two monoblocks, two channel La Scala type setup.

No budget

Biggest complaint i have read is the lack of low end. I listen to everything from Chris Stapleton, 80s music, to daft punk.

So hence, the subs. Found a 9" sub that will fit in a t-line enclosure that matches the bass bin. Looked up a servo sub as well that another member mentioned.

 

[altie]

I agree with freddi's well elaborated ideas about the 2220 vs. other drivers and the attractiveness of the Belle design vs. others.

For what it's worth, the Peavey FH1 takes a 15, so it's a fairly direct comparison in terms of what drivers you can use. They are big though, and they are verrrry ugly. That was actually a large part of the reason I abandoned that project - besides not being able to get them to sound the way I wanted, veneering them proved to be a no-go due to compound radiused corners and nails embedded in the edges that got in the way of routing off the corners so I could glue on a flat piece. Even if that had worked out though, I think the geometry of the Belle "doghouse" (the part in the middle that holds the driver) is much more visually elegant.

 

[Rolox]

Hello Everyone,

I've been reading on this forum and the klipsch forum regarding a diy la scala build. I have read many opinions on the klipschorn, la scala, jubilee, belle, voltis. Even some jbl builds, m2, 4350.

I plan on running an active eq/crossover, and an active powered t-line sub.

It seems a 2 way sytem is very popular (1 horn 1 bass bin), I will go 3 if you guys suggest.

I need some advice.

For the top should i go klipsch k510, k55m, or jbl 2430k D2?

D2 Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver

KLIPSCH LA SCALA TWO K-55-M HORN DRIVERS PLUS HORNS !!!! | eBay

What driver, what horn?

For the la scala bass bin, what driver? Jbl or klipsch/Crites?

Envision 3 stacks, sub box same shape as la scala, la scala stacked on top sub, compression driver on top of that. Modern looking la scala sitting on top of sub.

Thanks for the advice.

I made my own version of the Klipsch Lascala.

As bass horn I use Peavey FH1; as bass driver Klipsch K33E.

As midrange horn+driver I use EV SM120A + John Allen A55G (a refined, better driver based on Klipsch K55, sold by Bob crites/BEC speakers... very highly recommended, much better than K55 but able to be crossed at 400Hz like the original which is very important). EV SM120 is a FANTASTIC horn and is well suited for domestic use, allowing a near-field listening position without sounding disjointed or beamy.

As tweeter I use Beyma CP25, a tremendous value tweeter that matches very well with the SM120 dispersion.

I run a passive crossover at 6KHz (in effect a 3way ALK Universal crossover, but I disconnected the low-pass section) and active 24dB Linkwitz/Riley at 400hz. The ALk crossover allows a constant impedance, auto former based, user friendly control of the midrange level, wich combined with the active low-pass allows for very flexible tailoring of the response.

I used to have a pair of LaScala; this is an evolution of those. I could have kept the LaScala bass horns but mine were so beat up I preferred to buy FH1 instead. It's also a better bass horn IMHO but it has an even bigger floor print.

I'm very happy with the result, it is YEARS ahead of the stock Lascala.
Whatever you do, consider it will be very hard to find a driver allowing you to go two-way only, and if you do it will cost you a fortune. you could buy K402 or K502 with matching driver from Klipsch if you have the budget and space.
forget about the original LaScala midrange horns (K401), they suck.

 

[freddi]

hi ROLOX - did you make a baffle for SM120? or just sit it on top of FH1? I remember with an old EV1829 of getting a funlky graph - which maybe have been related to the small mouth height and short path compared to horn like 511B and Cobraflex (small mouth but long path) A baffle to add support to 400 and below may have helped my graph comparison. My SM120 came with Sentry IV.

Your active mid crossover would avoid odd interactions with SM120 on top sans baffle.

La Scala and Belle have a flat - zero expansion section - not sure what that does other than hornresp predictions but FH1 should be a bit smoother.

Altec 511 - if cheap enoough make a serviceable midhorn - something I might recommend with AC/DC at high spl - not terrible with Jaclk Sheldon's "Playin' It Straight" CD which had good dynmica range and fabulous playing. I like the tweeter back at the midhorn driver plane.

I once biamplified my FH1 with RJ vented 18 inch cabinets for the bottom - bening the nut I am, I preferred one old
beat Karlson K15. YMMV on that one ;^)