First Speaker Project - Basic rules?

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#21
Moondog55 said:

Makes you wonder if Vifa/Peerless have lost the plot a little as that P13 has the reputation for being the easiest midrange to get right first time around.
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Gees, the PL11, PL14 don't look like they would be horrid to work with ;-)
And the Peerless Nomex mids are sweet as !!

Nope, Vifa/Peerless have not dropped the ball !!

Its such a pity that so many people are hung up on metal drivers and complicated x-os 😀
 
#22
wiredmonkey said:

Assuming I go down the P13 path, what recommendations would you give re the tweeter?
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Can you still get the P13 ?

Anyway, if you are going 2-way, I would use a 6.5" for the bottom, with something like a Seas TDFC tweeter.

ps, and don't take the WES catalog at face value, it is notoriously out of date, who knows what they really have still in stock or what new stuff they have that isn't in the catalogs !!! 🙄
 
#23
wiredmonkey said:
I noticed I don't see many people discussing the tweeter - it all seems to be about the woofer.
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Interesting perception. Even in a two way, I have always considered the midrange ability of the woofer to be the most important aspect of it. In a 3 way, it's almost a no brainer, the mid is chosen first and the other components considered as a complement.

If it don't do the mids right, it don't matter what else it does. 😉

And yes, XO's take a lot of time, experience and patience.
 
#24
Andy I think a reccomendation from you would carry some "REAL" weight, and I do like the P11 and M11's but that P13 could maybe crossed over just a tad lower on the scale.
I have some Vifa D27's but apparently there have been some problems with these, I think that the Peerless tweeter Andy mentioned a while ago should do the trick.
Check out Zaph's tweeter mishmash, he liked the Vifa neo tweeter and I plan to use it myself ( with 4inch mids ) Personal opinion here but if you use 4inch drivers it has to be 3-way
 
#25
Andy Speakerbits still had 4 P-13's when I called last week, my comment on Vifa losing the plot was due to dropping this particular driver, which opinion says is so very easy for beginners to work with, i'm glad I managed to get some for my shelf even if it takes me a while to use them😀
 
#28
Moondog55 said:
Andy I think a reccomendation from you would carry some "REAL" weight, and I do like the P11 and M11's but that P13 could maybe crossed over just a tad lower on the scale.
I have some Vifa D27's but apparently there have been some problems with these, I think that the Peerless tweeter Andy mentioned a while ago should do the trick.
Check out Zaph's tweeter mishmash, he liked the Vifa neo tweeter and I plan to use it myself ( with 4inch mids ) Personal opinion here but if you use 4inch drivers it has to be 3-way
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Thanks Moondog, :blush:

The P and M 11, 13 are really just "mid" drivers, and difficult to get a truly balanced 2-way out of. The bass just isn't there. So I agree with your last statement

I think there was a bad batch of D27's a while ago, but I never had any problems with them, maybe we just didn't get any of the duds over here ? Worthy of consideration !!

Did I mention a Peerless tweeter ?? 😕

The D26NC wouldn't be a bad choice either.
 
#32
wiredmonkey said:

As for the crossover I think I *should* okay - I understand the concept of rolloff, different types of filters, decibels, components quality, inductance...etc.

I see a lot of posts regarding the difficulty of crossovers. In my possibly arrogant mind I don't see why they should be difficult

what are the main factors I should take into account other than rolloff and crossover point?
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Your selfconfidense is really impressive...in light of what you say I very much doubt that you fully understand the difficulties of speaker design and crossover

If you are not into years of learning, do yourself a favour and build a proven design😉
 
#33
Moondog55 said:
Andy Speakerbits still had 4 P-13's when I called last week, my comment on Vifa losing the plot was due to dropping this particular driver, which opinion says is so very easy for beginners to work with, i'm glad I managed to get some for my shelf even if it takes me a while to use them😀
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The PL14 is very similar. Uses the same motor etc, but they just decided to go with the single hybrid cone type rather than the poly (P) and the paper (M) series.

The loss is the P17WJ, there is no similar driver to it any more. The PL18 is a different fish completely.

Still for "wired's" purpose, a PL18 cabinet is small, plenty bass, there is even Ken Perkin's "Nebula" design using the XT25 tweeter somewhere.
That would be a very good project for him, a tad more expensive than he mentioned though !!!
 
#35
tinitus said:



Your selfconfidense is really impressive...in light of what you say I very much doubt that you fully understand the difficulties of speaker design and crossover

If you are not into years of learning, do yourself a favour and build a proven design😉
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A proven design will give me a proven outcome - or at least one close to it. An unknown design, even for someone like myself, I think, will teach me much more and give me a much better understanding of considerations I need to take. I understand why you say this but I'm always in it for the learning experience even if it involves smoke coming from my designs 🙂

Mind you, when there is smoke pouring out I'll be cursing myself and wishing I had listened to the advice! 😀
 
#37
Come-on guys; it's learning from our mistakes that keeps us young and our brains working.
Using other peoples designs is great and if we can follow instructions to the letter we would hopefully wind up with a good clone, wouldn't you rather have the fun of breeding your own??😀

Sometimes the ingredients for a particular recipe just aren't avaliable or the cost is prohibitive and wiredmonkey's budget is rather small.
And mistakes don't usually smoke ; they go silent after skawking hideously for a few minutes, and now I'm off to Bunnings ( I am out of 1200 grit sandpaper)
 
#39
tinitus said:
Well, thats ok then

I hesitate, but I think I might recommend you to do a 2.5way with some nice 5.5"

This new TB could make it an easy task
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w5-1611sa.htm
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We can't get the TB drivers down here, (D'archer carries a few, but not the 5.5) and the import freight cost is silly !!

If 'Wired' can get "trade" with WES, that is really the only sensible way to proceed, which means using DST driver (Vifa, Peerless, etc)
 
#40
Interesting perception. Even in a two way, I have always considered the midrange ability of the woofer to be the most important aspect of it. In a 3 way, it's almost a no brainer, the mid is chosen first and the other components considered as a complement.
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Hi Cal, i have always been of the impression that smooth highs are the hallmark of a great speaker and if using Fs *3 as the cross-over point then resonance ot the tweeter would seem to dictate where mids need to cross; therefore determining how big that mid would be.
I would normally cross a 4inch around 3 or 4k, i've gone much higher sometimes even to 6k, but if I was able to cross low at 2k for example I could use a much bigger mid driver even as big as 7 inches. I don't like 2 ways!!, the bass muddies up the mid-range.
regards Ted
 
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