Depends how ugly the XO makes the load, and how loud you like to play. Many of my speakers are in the 86 dB range and my room is not small and i've not had any issues.
dave
For what it is worth to the OP, I have built Jeff Bagby's Triton MTM with a ML-TL modification which enhances the bass. A separate thread exists on my experiences with the Triton MTM ML-TL at:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226173-triton-mtm-grows-legs-mltl-design.html
A friend of mine has built Jeff's Continuum and Kairos designs. More recently I provided a design variant of Jeff's Continuum/Kairos subwoofer module addition to DIY'er woodsart (aka Robert Woods). His work pictured on Parts Express' TechTalk forum and is discussed in this thread:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...5307-kairos-with-bass-module-vs-statements-ii
Jeff is a superb designer and any of his designs are well received and highly recommended.
If you are interested in a road trip and a listening session, I live about three hours away (due north in Cookeville, TN) from Atlanta.
Jim
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226173-triton-mtm-grows-legs-mltl-design.html
A friend of mine has built Jeff's Continuum and Kairos designs. More recently I provided a design variant of Jeff's Continuum/Kairos subwoofer module addition to DIY'er woodsart (aka Robert Woods). His work pictured on Parts Express' TechTalk forum and is discussed in this thread:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...5307-kairos-with-bass-module-vs-statements-ii
Jeff is a superb designer and any of his designs are well received and highly recommended.
If you are interested in a road trip and a listening session, I live about three hours away (due north in Cookeville, TN) from Atlanta.
Jim
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It is easy to change the low frequency "bass slope" and SPL with a switch to control a couple woofer R-L filters. Common technique for baffle-step control near walls, or resonance management in a small room. Many production designs offer this control so you can enjoy the speaker in several different rooms.
Low A on a piano is 27Hz...real music requires deep bass.
Real music requires quality sound. If the loudspeaker can't deliver quality bass down low for any reason, than i don't need it because it spoiles rest of the music. 27Hz in such a small room will sound boomy as hell. It will excite the room modes and problem is there - and it won't go away with sock stuck in the port.
Continuums or Tributes looks good for that room. As always i would recommend making test cabinets that Jeff designed for it out of cheap particle board just to see if there is a need for MLTL or adding dedicated bass driver under - having in mind such a small room.
Continuums or Tributes looks good for that room. As always i would recommend making test cabinets that Jeff designed for it out of cheap particle board just to see if there is a need for MLTL or adding dedicated bass driver under - having in mind such a small room.
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Wow, thanks for the interest in Jeff's Continuum in the MLTL configuration. My blog had a better explanation of the TL build. It is the same build as my TzuJan's. However, it appears the blogs have disappeared from the PETT site after the software change.
In any event, as I mentioned it is the same line as the TzuJans. The difficult part of the build is the baffle, which is separate solid hardwood, and screwed into the face of the line from the back. Please post again if you think you might benefit from some photos, can I'll see what I can find.
Regarding bracing. I no longer have the Continuum MLTL, as it was a gift to a friend. However, I still have the TzuJans. They have a center cross brace made of a single 19mm X 19mm piece of Baltic birch. This serves at least the purpose of keeping the stuffing in the top half. It probably has some effect on resonances, though I doubt that there are any resonances of consequence on a line of such small cross section - no way of comparing without building another set!
I have no reason to believe bracing would hurt - but I personally doubt that I would hear a differences. Knock yourself out - but limit the volume consumed by braces. Also, keep in mind that the AC130/F1 will run out of juice before volumes get very high.
If you want a speaker a bit better than the Continuum MLTL, build the TzuJans. They are a three-way in basically the same cabinet. The best speakers I have ever built - still. I have spent hundreds of hours with them - resonances will not be an issue IMO.
I am traveling this weekend, but now, I want to get home to listen to them again!
In any event, as I mentioned it is the same line as the TzuJans. The difficult part of the build is the baffle, which is separate solid hardwood, and screwed into the face of the line from the back. Please post again if you think you might benefit from some photos, can I'll see what I can find.
Regarding bracing. I no longer have the Continuum MLTL, as it was a gift to a friend. However, I still have the TzuJans. They have a center cross brace made of a single 19mm X 19mm piece of Baltic birch. This serves at least the purpose of keeping the stuffing in the top half. It probably has some effect on resonances, though I doubt that there are any resonances of consequence on a line of such small cross section - no way of comparing without building another set!
I have no reason to believe bracing would hurt - but I personally doubt that I would hear a differences. Knock yourself out - but limit the volume consumed by braces. Also, keep in mind that the AC130/F1 will run out of juice before volumes get very high.
If you want a speaker a bit better than the Continuum MLTL, build the TzuJans. They are a three-way in basically the same cabinet. The best speakers I have ever built - still. I have spent hundreds of hours with them - resonances will not be an issue IMO.
I am traveling this weekend, but now, I want to get home to listen to them again!
Thanks! However with this build I'd rather focus on cabinet construction than crossover, thus I'm going with an existing trusted design. Later with a larger free budget I'd like to play with the crossover and tweak it just to see what it does to the sound signature, as a second project! I will keep the SB drivers you mention in mind though, what got me reading into Jeff B.'s designs were the drivers in the Kairos!
That's a very kind offer! I'm tempted but since I don't have a car and am a full time grad student its going to be really tough to look outside Atlanta. The Triton IIRC from another thread won't sound too different from the Tritons, and I'm willing to trust the speaker on the design(er)'s reputation!
I do agree with this. For later, if I do shift to a bigger room and budget, I can always build the matching bass module or add the subwoofer to get a full-range system. For now, I am just trying to get the most tonal accuracy within the speakers limits.
Thanks for making those plans available, it is most helpful! I will stick with the Continuums for my budget as of now, but for a later project I shall consider 3-ways! Also reduces crossover network and required amplification for now.
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For a different question here, as the ACA is a power amplifier with relatively lower output, will it perform louder if fed with an active pre-amplifier? I have no experience whatsoever with preamps. I did read, on another forum, that an Objective2 headphone amp(which I possess), can be used/modified/followed in the chain with a attenuator to be used as a preamp! Will this increase performance with the ACA-Continuum combo?
Another doubt : If I do use the O2 amp as a preamp, will it help as a better impedance matcher from a cheap Raspberry Pi DAC board to the amp?
I know these questions might be silly, I know nothing about preamps and impedance matching, but hope to learn from this! If you believe these questions are better asked in another section, I can shift this discussion there.
As of now my heart leans towards
Raspberry Pi -> IQAudio DAC+ ->(?) modified o2 preamp (?) -> ACA build or second hand amp or higher power diy amp -> continuum TL!
Thoughts, Criticisms and inputs are welcome!
I built the Continuums a few months ago, mainly for a reference to compare to my other speaker builds that have been constructed over the last few years, including Frugalhorns, LXminhttp://986forum.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=441993 clones, a couple of open baffle designs based loosely on Orion/Nao, Apogee TM ribbons with open baffle bass panels and a couple of stand mounted speakers, one with sloped baffle and one waveguide experiment. All except the Continuums use minidsp for crossover.
I have a small music room and all the speakers I have built suffer from mild to severe bass bloom except for the open baffle types. Hence, even with the Continuums, I use a minidsp to cut the bass emphasis and smooth out other room influenced anomalies. Consequently, they are very satisfying down to about 40hz.
I will probably build the mltl version of the Continuum sometime soon. My main pre/amp combination is a B4 buffer preamp(pinkfishmedia.com) and Symasym amplifier rated at somewhere between 50 and 100wpc.
I took the liberty of using solid walnut with 1" leather covered mdf baffle and a removable pack.
It's a shame you have no transport since I am only a couple hours north of Atlanta and would welcome you to audition them.
Peter
I have a small music room and all the speakers I have built suffer from mild to severe bass bloom except for the open baffle types. Hence, even with the Continuums, I use a minidsp to cut the bass emphasis and smooth out other room influenced anomalies. Consequently, they are very satisfying down to about 40hz.
I will probably build the mltl version of the Continuum sometime soon. My main pre/amp combination is a B4 buffer preamp(pinkfishmedia.com) and Symasym amplifier rated at somewhere between 50 and 100wpc.
I took the liberty of using solid walnut with 1" leather covered mdf baffle and a removable pack.
It's a shame you have no transport since I am only a couple hours north of Atlanta and would welcome you to audition them.
Peter
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ACA doesn't have enough power to drive AC130F1 - you need at least a 50w amp for it to sound good. Look at a good class AB or diy class AB amp like a Dx. I have the AC130F1 and the ACA. But if you play very soft levels maybe it's fine for you.
Could you post your frd and zma files?(in text?) I want to run them with an LR4 1600Hz crossover(attached) on a time-step baffle. My sims used measurements from a large baffle. The SB17NRXC35-8-UC shows a full/smooth 180-degree polar merge with the SB29RDC-4 dome tweeter with this crossover design.
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Some fun for us.... Maybe helpful for musicgeek to get comfortable with Xsim crossover tweeks for his room.
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I'm at work now but as soon as i get home i'll post them here. I'm using SB29RDC-C0004 (as suggested in Mandolin kit). Tweeter is not flush with baffle in my test cabinets so i shouldn't post measurements for it now - it does not do them justice. I can upload tweeter .frd when i get finished cabinets (built by my friend). If you insist i can upload tweeter .frd as is and combined (midbass and tweeter) response in order for you to determine the acoustic offset between them and then use your own frequency measurements of tweeter so you could simulate the xover properly.
All measurements are done at about 1m distance, mic on tweeter axis. It is quite similar to what Troels measured here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-61-NRXC/red-600-SB17NRXC_0.25mtfb_-30.2.gif
I like what you did with xover - i'll give it a listen this evening
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I am posting HOLM measurement files for bass, tweeter and bass+tweeter combined frequency response in the .zip file. Just open it in HOLMimpulse if you want to work with it. Then there are .txt files that are scaled. Only thing you should do is change extension into .frd and PCD and other programs can use it for xover modelling. It is gated at about 280Hz - give or take a Hz.
Again, tweeter measuremens are looking bad because they are not mounted as they should be. When i flush them into the front baffle it will measure much better.
.zma files i will post later. I have some guests arriving and i can't find .zma files on my computer right now.
Image with offsets is uploaded too.
Again, tweeter measuremens are looking bad because they are not mounted as they should be. When i flush them into the front baffle it will measure much better.
.zma files i will post later. I have some guests arriving and i can't find .zma files on my computer right now.
Image with offsets is uploaded too.
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Thanks guys! Great amount of information and lots to learn here!
Peter, could you possibly tell me your thoughts/listening impressions on the Continuum against your formidable line up of speakers?
Agreed, at least to be on the safe side. I'm sticking to a Class-D right now, for ease of build and lower cost.
Peter, could you possibly tell me your thoughts/listening impressions on the Continuum against your formidable line up of speakers?
Agreed, at least to be on the safe side. I'm sticking to a Class-D right now, for ease of build and lower cost.
Appreciate it! It will help to learn for when I try this!
As mor2bz mentioned, I have built the Continuum MLTLs and the A7.3 Frugalhorns. You won't go wrong with either build. I built a small sub, Voxel - a mini-sub+ - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum to use with them. Whether or not you want a sub depends on your listening taste. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either build. The Continuums, however, are a proprietary design, so you'll need to buy from the likes of Meniscus or DIY Sound Group. DIY SG offers the kit with the baffle, The Continuum DIY Sound Group
That would simply building them quite a bit. I'm not sure how much different the crossover is, but you could check with Jeff Bagby on the Parts Express Tech Talk forum, Forums - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
As far as an amp is concerned, you should have enough budget left over to get a pretty nice amp. Vintage is good if you can find one that has honestly been refurbished, unless you can service it yourself if need be. You've gotten a lot of good advice on amps.
Something else to keep in mind is moving. Being a grad student, I'd guess a move to different living quarters is in the not-to-distant future for you. As much as I like the Frugalhorns, I think the Continuums are less picky about placement. Maybe Dave can verify whether or not that's the case.
Good luck on your build and have fun with it!
Mike
That would simply building them quite a bit. I'm not sure how much different the crossover is, but you could check with Jeff Bagby on the Parts Express Tech Talk forum, Forums - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
As far as an amp is concerned, you should have enough budget left over to get a pretty nice amp. Vintage is good if you can find one that has honestly been refurbished, unless you can service it yourself if need be. You've gotten a lot of good advice on amps.
Something else to keep in mind is moving. Being a grad student, I'd guess a move to different living quarters is in the not-to-distant future for you. As much as I like the Frugalhorns, I think the Continuums are less picky about placement. Maybe Dave can verify whether or not that's the case.
Good luck on your build and have fun with it!
Mike
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@OP: for such a small room you should be looking at nearfield monitors.
moreover if on a budget, I would honestly hunt on ebay for a pair of old B&W DM302s and a gainclone amplifier and keep $500 for later on when you get a bigger listening space and more DIY time after the grad school.
At that point, since you came to the right place for a timely advice, you should benefit from the progress already made on considering dispersion patterns i.e speaker directivity and build something like LXMinis (or a bigger equivalent if needed) with a digital Xover and multiamp, and call it a day.
I still build box speakers for the fun of it (mostly for others), and still use a pair (of 85L Elsinores), but ever since I got involved with OB/CD etc. I realize this is really "old school" and the same is reflected in the latest pro/commercial developments as well. especially if you are into jazz/blues/vocals/ and such. Good luck.
moreover if on a budget, I would honestly hunt on ebay for a pair of old B&W DM302s and a gainclone amplifier and keep $500 for later on when you get a bigger listening space and more DIY time after the grad school.
At that point, since you came to the right place for a timely advice
, you should benefit from the progress already made on considering dispersion patterns i.e speaker directivity and build something like LXMinis (or a bigger equivalent if needed) with a digital Xover and multiamp, and call it a day.I still build box speakers for the fun of it (mostly for others), and still use a pair (of 85L Elsinores), but ever since I got involved with OB/CD etc. I realize this is really "old school" and the same is reflected in the latest pro/commercial developments as well. especially if you are into jazz/blues/vocals/ and such. Good luck.
Last OT on "SB17 + SB29 drivers" 2-way.
Thank you for posting your SBAcoustics measurements. Since they are similar to Troels small box 2-way posted data, your measurement methods are very good. I used Troels in-box data to built this Xsim crossover. L4 and C1 required change from my earlier design to cover the smaller baffle SPL effects.
The original baffle simulation I used shows the general SPL shape changes as the drivers are moved around the baffle. Move the tweeter: offcenter; nearer to the top; over-lapping the midbass; physical time align to midbass; etc... This allows early compensation of the large-baffle SPL measurements from datasheets and BOXSIM before a cabinet is constructed. Only accurate measurements like yours will capture the small details.
The speaker's crossover design should take SOME baffle step into account, but using amplifier tone controls or equalizer function is the best way to manage room gain. No tone controls in your amplifier gain chain? There are passive $10-$20 kits on eBay as well as Baxandall type diy-schematics.
Thank you for posting your SBAcoustics measurements. Since they are similar to Troels small box 2-way posted data, your measurement methods are very good. I used Troels in-box data to built this Xsim crossover. L4 and C1 required change from my earlier design to cover the smaller baffle SPL effects.
The original baffle simulation I used shows the general SPL shape changes as the drivers are moved around the baffle. Move the tweeter: offcenter; nearer to the top; over-lapping the midbass; physical time align to midbass; etc... This allows early compensation of the large-baffle SPL measurements from datasheets and BOXSIM before a cabinet is constructed. Only accurate measurements like yours will capture the small details.
The speaker's crossover design should take SOME baffle step into account, but using amplifier tone controls or equalizer function is the best way to manage room gain. No tone controls in your amplifier gain chain? There are passive $10-$20 kits on eBay as well as Baxandall type diy-schematics.
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