Hello people,
I am a begginer in DIY Audio and i am looking to build my first PA system. I am in need for a complete setup reccomendation. My requirement at this point is to cover outdoor events for about 200 - 300 people and the budget is around 5-7k euros. We play electronic music mostly Techno, House, Trance etc. The PA will be mainly powered by generators. As a base to build from i was thinking of something like 4x18 inch subs (with a quick search the xoc1 th-18 caught my eye, any other suggestions are welcome off course). So from there... what else will i need in terms of mid and hf speakers? What would be a complete setup with amps included?
Thanks in advance ✨
I am a begginer in DIY Audio and i am looking to build my first PA system. I am in need for a complete setup reccomendation. My requirement at this point is to cover outdoor events for about 200 - 300 people and the budget is around 5-7k euros. We play electronic music mostly Techno, House, Trance etc. The PA will be mainly powered by generators. As a base to build from i was thinking of something like 4x18 inch subs (with a quick search the xoc1 th-18 caught my eye, any other suggestions are welcome off course). So from there... what else will i need in terms of mid and hf speakers? What would be a complete setup with amps included?
Thanks in advance ✨
You probably should try to provide some more information. Like maybe:
1. Are there vocalists, if so how many mics?
2. Are there drums, if so electronic or acoustic?
3. How loud do you need it to get, say, in terms of dB SPL at, say, maybe 15-feet distance?
4. Do you need really deep bass, if so down to what frequency?
5. Is there going to be an elevated stage or do the speakers need to be on stands?
6. Is the electrical generator cost included in the budget you mentioned?
7. Do you need safe and legal stage electrical power distribution for electronic instruments (like in case it starts to rain, or someone spills a drink)?
8. Do you need monitor speakers on stage?
9. Where will the mixing console go, do you need a snake system for signals and power to the mixing position?
10. Do you have a way of moving generators and speakers, etc. around, or is that included in the budget?
11. Do you need a secure way to store equipment overnight if performing out on the road, and or theft insurance for such events included in the budget?
12. Will the audience be 360-degrees around the stage area, or off to one side? What speaker dispersion angles will need to be covered?
13. Do you need a separate mix for on-stage monitors?
14. What kind of sound quality are you hoping for, is screechy/distorted good enough or you need real hi-fi?
15. What about a lighting system, and PA system immunity to light dimmer electrical noise?
16. Etc.?
1. Are there vocalists, if so how many mics?
2. Are there drums, if so electronic or acoustic?
3. How loud do you need it to get, say, in terms of dB SPL at, say, maybe 15-feet distance?
4. Do you need really deep bass, if so down to what frequency?
5. Is there going to be an elevated stage or do the speakers need to be on stands?
6. Is the electrical generator cost included in the budget you mentioned?
7. Do you need safe and legal stage electrical power distribution for electronic instruments (like in case it starts to rain, or someone spills a drink)?
8. Do you need monitor speakers on stage?
9. Where will the mixing console go, do you need a snake system for signals and power to the mixing position?
10. Do you have a way of moving generators and speakers, etc. around, or is that included in the budget?
11. Do you need a secure way to store equipment overnight if performing out on the road, and or theft insurance for such events included in the budget?
12. Will the audience be 360-degrees around the stage area, or off to one side? What speaker dispersion angles will need to be covered?
13. Do you need a separate mix for on-stage monitors?
14. What kind of sound quality are you hoping for, is screechy/distorted good enough or you need real hi-fi?
15. What about a lighting system, and PA system immunity to light dimmer electrical noise?
16. Etc.?
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Hey Markw4,
- No vocalists nor live instruments. Only DJing equipment. There are gonna be turntables though but i think i can avoid feedback with the proper arrangement.
- I need deep bass since electronic music is written in a big range of frequencies (the deeper the better, maybe 35-40 hz?). A good kick drum and clear mids and highs. The sound must be as clear as possible. No distortion nor screeches. Not something with lot's of character. It's ok not to be "true hi-fi" though, something warm but and bit punchy too.
- I need a system that could provide easily 105 db of SPL. You should definately feel the pump on your chest.
- No elevated stage or columns, i was thinking of a good old speaker stack. The setup will be as simple as possible. Two speaker stacks and the mixing console next to the DJ booth. The crowd is gonna be in front of the speakers.
- Maybe just 2 monitors for the DJ if we could fit that to that budget, but the main system comes first.
- For now i have an allen heath xone 96 mixer that can handle some gear but if needed i will buy another mixing console.
- The generator is not included in the budget.
- No seperate mixing for the monitors, the allen & heath has a channel dedicated to the booth monitors.
- No cables, lights, cases and transport at this point. I will figure that out later.
- Just some good tested cabin plans, drivers, amps, crossovers etc...
Hi John,
Many years ago, back in the early 70's, I did live sound for a living for 7-years. Every size system, sometimes with a generator, sometimes with big stacks in an arena, etc. Back in those days we used bass horns with cutoff frequency of 65Hz - 70Hz. We also use HF horns.
For an outdoor band in the park where there is no electricity so a generator was needed, I would probably fill up one passenger van sized vehicle (one without passenger seats), with equipment including the generator. Probably I would put up 4-speakers on stands so I can aim them to cover the audience area and adjust the height as needed for nearby audience or for longer distances. In a case like that I might want get on site 3-4 hours before showtime to start getting things setup and have it all ready by the time he band and people arrived. Should leave enough time for a sound check. Also, the generator engine would make some noise so I would probably leave it in the truck with the doors open, and maybe park it at least 50ft away so it wouldn't be too loud. Might need a security person to watch over the truck and generator. Running cables for a stack system and aiming horns to cover the audience area would take a bigger system and a bigger truck. Horns have to be above head height. Maybe two sound guys. We would be there for 2-3 hours after the show to get all the cables wound up and stowed in road boxes. HF horns for the bigger systems weighed 90lbs each and hand to be carried up a ladder to the top of the bass bin stack (don't forget to bring the ladder, maybe a sheet of plywood to put under it so it doesn't tip on uneven outdoor ground. Then aimed with pieces of cut 4x4 and or 2x4 pieces of wood. Packing straps could be used to secure the stuff on top so it couldn't fall. For an arena show we might get there a 9am and leave at 3am. Two sound guys, and a crew of stagehands to help with the move-in and the teardown.
Anyway, trust me, musicians would want no part of that type of hard work and long hours. Everything has to be packed up and secured ready to go for the next show. There might only be one way to fit it all in the truck, everything in a certain packing order.
For a band there is no way I would recommend a system like that. Rather, they need equipment that is small, lightweight as possible, with integrated amplifiers in the speaker boxes. Probably speakers on stands so they can be quickly and easily setup, aimed, then torn down and packed up after the show. Already that's a lot work and extra time on site for many musicians.
Thus, probably I would suggest looking for a used PA system that to handle all but the deep bass, a system with integrated speakers on stands. Maybe like the JBL EON series or something of that ilk. The better and more expensive brands tend to sound better and may be more rugged. Then I would look for some subs to handle the very low end, which would just sit on the ground. At the very least I would do some homework to check out such a system and see if it could work for your application.
Regarding kick drums, if we are talking about electronic drums then a compact system could probably handle that reasonably well, and the drums kept in balance with the other instrument sounds. OTOH, if acoustic drums are involved and if they are to be amplified through a PA system, then you need a fairly big, powerful system, and some mics. Then feedback (squealing) can become a problem which requires careful setup of the system relative to where the mics would be.
Well, that's pretty much my two cents.
Best,
Mark
Many years ago, back in the early 70's, I did live sound for a living for 7-years. Every size system, sometimes with a generator, sometimes with big stacks in an arena, etc. Back in those days we used bass horns with cutoff frequency of 65Hz - 70Hz. We also use HF horns.
For an outdoor band in the park where there is no electricity so a generator was needed, I would probably fill up one passenger van sized vehicle (one without passenger seats), with equipment including the generator. Probably I would put up 4-speakers on stands so I can aim them to cover the audience area and adjust the height as needed for nearby audience or for longer distances. In a case like that I might want get on site 3-4 hours before showtime to start getting things setup and have it all ready by the time he band and people arrived. Should leave enough time for a sound check. Also, the generator engine would make some noise so I would probably leave it in the truck with the doors open, and maybe park it at least 50ft away so it wouldn't be too loud. Might need a security person to watch over the truck and generator. Running cables for a stack system and aiming horns to cover the audience area would take a bigger system and a bigger truck. Horns have to be above head height. Maybe two sound guys. We would be there for 2-3 hours after the show to get all the cables wound up and stowed in road boxes. HF horns for the bigger systems weighed 90lbs each and hand to be carried up a ladder to the top of the bass bin stack (don't forget to bring the ladder, maybe a sheet of plywood to put under it so it doesn't tip on uneven outdoor ground. Then aimed with pieces of cut 4x4 and or 2x4 pieces of wood. Packing straps could be used to secure the stuff on top so it couldn't fall. For an arena show we might get there a 9am and leave at 3am. Two sound guys, and a crew of stagehands to help with the move-in and the teardown.
Anyway, trust me, musicians would want no part of that type of hard work and long hours. Everything has to be packed up and secured ready to go for the next show. There might only be one way to fit it all in the truck, everything in a certain packing order.
For a band there is no way I would recommend a system like that. Rather, they need equipment that is small, lightweight as possible, with integrated amplifiers in the speaker boxes. Probably speakers on stands so they can be quickly and easily setup, aimed, then torn down and packed up after the show. Already that's a lot work and extra time on site for many musicians.
Thus, probably I would suggest looking for a used PA system that to handle all but the deep bass, a system with integrated speakers on stands. Maybe like the JBL EON series or something of that ilk. The better and more expensive brands tend to sound better and may be more rugged. Then I would look for some subs to handle the very low end, which would just sit on the ground. At the very least I would do some homework to check out such a system and see if it could work for your application.
Regarding kick drums, if we are talking about electronic drums then a compact system could probably handle that reasonably well, and the drums kept in balance with the other instrument sounds. OTOH, if acoustic drums are involved and if they are to be amplified through a PA system, then you need a fairly big, powerful system, and some mics. Then feedback (squealing) can become a problem which requires careful setup of the system relative to where the mics would be.
Well, that's pretty much my two cents.
Best,
Mark
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Do you have a pic of their amplifiers? Honestly, it looks like it sounds pretty bad. The boxes are not going to have good FR, and the boxes will resonate. The audience will have uneven coverage for FR, etc. EQ cannot fix all the problems.
Anyway, do you already have table saw and router? If so you might start adding up the cost to build something like that. From what can be seen, it will take some number of sheets of plywood, and several drivers. Then there is cabling and connectors. How many watts of power and how many amplifier boxes are they using for that?
I mean, if that's what you aspire to, and if you have a budget of no more than $7,000, then first thing to do is figure out if you can do it for the budget you have. IOW, start planning top-down. Then start again bottom-up which is where it seems like you are trying to start from now. Maybe you want something like this: https://audiojudgement.com/folded-horn-speaker-design/#:~:text=Applications,which has around 0.5% efficiency. Or maybe like: https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...HUuPHkQQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=1654&bih=898&dpr=1.5
Anyway, do you already have table saw and router? If so you might start adding up the cost to build something like that. From what can be seen, it will take some number of sheets of plywood, and several drivers. Then there is cabling and connectors. How many watts of power and how many amplifier boxes are they using for that?
I mean, if that's what you aspire to, and if you have a budget of no more than $7,000, then first thing to do is figure out if you can do it for the budget you have. IOW, start planning top-down. Then start again bottom-up which is where it seems like you are trying to start from now. Maybe you want something like this: https://audiojudgement.com/folded-horn-speaker-design/#:~:text=Applications,which has around 0.5% efficiency. Or maybe like: https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...HUuPHkQQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=1654&bih=898&dpr=1.5
I can’t provide more info because I don’t know any. That’s why I am looking for advice. I want specific plans for models like the xoc1, specific suggestion for amps drivers connectors cables etc
https://www.dbaudio.com/global/en/a...xperience-with-db-soundscape-and-ksl-systems/
I don't know what you're hoping for but I've heard Kraftwerk various times, in 2017 I heard them every night for 5 nights, different 3D album each night, in Turin, Italy. I had to get there from the UK by Trans Europe Express (French TGV) having previously used the Autobahn to reach their concert in Geneva. Sorry... 🤣 The sound was incredible, even in Turin where the venue was a square box with the rear wall reflecting everything right back at them. Modern PA equipment is a million miles away from the ancient Turbosound kit we used when I was a student.
Have a look at db Audiotechnik and decide where you want to be, speakers now are much smaller, handle more power, are arranged in arrays, powered by many Kwatts of class D power. https://www.dbaudio.com/global/en/products/amplifiers/d80/ This 2U amp has 4 x 4Kw output, remote plus local touchscreen control.
I don't know what you're hoping for but I've heard Kraftwerk various times, in 2017 I heard them every night for 5 nights, different 3D album each night, in Turin, Italy. I had to get there from the UK by Trans Europe Express (French TGV) having previously used the Autobahn to reach their concert in Geneva. Sorry... 🤣 The sound was incredible, even in Turin where the venue was a square box with the rear wall reflecting everything right back at them. Modern PA equipment is a million miles away from the ancient Turbosound kit we used when I was a student.
Have a look at db Audiotechnik and decide where you want to be, speakers now are much smaller, handle more power, are arranged in arrays, powered by many Kwatts of class D power. https://www.dbaudio.com/global/en/products/amplifiers/d80/ This 2U amp has 4 x 4Kw output, remote plus local touchscreen control.
I have extensive experience with db systems. Unfortunately, you will not get much for 7K Euros.
John - can you make a list of what you are comfortable making, i.e. cabinets, amps, crossovers etc? If we know where your skills are, we can advise accordingly (there are books out there BTW. Back in the day, there was the 'Fane' construction manual - Turbosound founded the firm on the designs. You can get them on Ebay, but the designs are old). A full db or F1 system, bought off the shelf, even if it's a small system, will cost a lot more than 7K. Having said that, you do see F1 systems go on Ebay for that kind of amount if they are a few years old. Meyer and db would be my preference, but they are $$$$
John - can you make a list of what you are comfortable making, i.e. cabinets, amps, crossovers etc? If we know where your skills are, we can advise accordingly (there are books out there BTW. Back in the day, there was the 'Fane' construction manual - Turbosound founded the firm on the designs. You can get them on Ebay, but the designs are old). A full db or F1 system, bought off the shelf, even if it's a small system, will cost a lot more than 7K. Having said that, you do see F1 systems go on Ebay for that kind of amount if they are a few years old. Meyer and db would be my preference, but they are $$$$
Really ? 😎 My point is that PA systems are not what they were, we often look to the past to see what might work today, and in the case of PA, the past is definitely not useful today.
TH-18s are a good start. I built some and really enjoy the way they sound. Keystones will save money in plywood and are maybe an easier build. Sounds like you'll be running parties off-grid, which means logistics can be difficult, so be aware that they weigh a LOT. I'm assuming you'll be throwing parties outdoors?
As for tops there are a heap of options. A lot of the driver manufacturers (B&C, SB Accoustics, Faital, etc) have suggested cabinets. Then there's all the DIY options on here, or othe well-known forums/social media. No one can really tell you what you should build, there are a tonne of great options and some not-so-great options, it's up to you to decide what works for you.
As for tops there are a heap of options. A lot of the driver manufacturers (B&C, SB Accoustics, Faital, etc) have suggested cabinets. Then there's all the DIY options on here, or othe well-known forums/social media. No one can really tell you what you should build, there are a tonne of great options and some not-so-great options, it's up to you to decide what works for you.