Hello !
Here is my first post about my recent work around speaker building.
This forum has been a great source of learning for this project, I guess it's the right thing to do to show you the actual results !
This project began with the aim of building a speaker system for listening sessions in various locations around my home. The brief was for something that sounded good, big, within a manageable budget and with DSP capabilities to adapt to a wide range of different listening conditions.
So it's a project conceived at the crossroads of Hifi and PA philosophies.
This being my first loudspeaker manufacturing project, I turned to the well-known recipe of a 15’ BR in a large box (135L), with externalised compression and its horn. For obvious design and manufacturing reasons.
The choice of a DSP also led me towards an active crossover. This led me towards multi-amplification.
Here's the list of components:
15‘’ Faital Pro 15PR400
2‘’ Beyma CP750Ti
B&C ME60
Behind the scene:
DBX DriveRack PA2
Crown XLS 2002 (for the tops)
Crown XLS 2502
The project is currently at the end of its first phase, and there's still work to be done. For example, the horn is due to be replaced, along with a potentially better tuning of the port, and a fair amount of cosmetic finishing.
The system is currently located in my living room, which is not particularly practical for listening at correct volumes and which has some modal resonance problems. When the warm weather arrives, I'll do a series of outdoor measurements, which I'll post here if you're interested!
For the moment, and after several weeks of critical listening, I'm happy with the result as a first project, although I'm not reinventing the wheel, this simple system ticks most of the boxes in the desired specifications.
My first criticism would be that the vent perhaps deserves better tuning. Although I've followed the measurements given by WinISD, I feel there's more to be done. Fortunately, I've made sure that the vent can be modified more or less easily.
Although the compression is effective in its frequency ranges and pleasant, I'm missing quite a bit of information beyond 10kHz, or even lower. That's why I'd like to add a remote tweeter, (Fostex T90A, Visaton TL16H etc), with its share of questions, but we'll certainly have the opportunity to discuss them!
There's still some work to be done on the insulation, but after several tests with different materials, 45mm cotton panel glued on the internal sides and lower back panel seems to be giving the best results for the moment.
The ME60 horns were chosen temporarily to start listening, but are due to be replaced. Not having had the opportunity to make comparisons with other horns, my criticism is limited for the moment. I'd love to produce my own horns, and that will probably be the subject of another dedicated post.
Here are few pictures of the fabrication:
Feel free to ask for details about the design, or even the plans! One of the goals of this project is to provide everything needed for anyone who wants to build it themselves and improve upon it!
Here is my first post about my recent work around speaker building.
This forum has been a great source of learning for this project, I guess it's the right thing to do to show you the actual results !
This project began with the aim of building a speaker system for listening sessions in various locations around my home. The brief was for something that sounded good, big, within a manageable budget and with DSP capabilities to adapt to a wide range of different listening conditions.
So it's a project conceived at the crossroads of Hifi and PA philosophies.
This being my first loudspeaker manufacturing project, I turned to the well-known recipe of a 15’ BR in a large box (135L), with externalised compression and its horn. For obvious design and manufacturing reasons.
The choice of a DSP also led me towards an active crossover. This led me towards multi-amplification.
Here's the list of components:
15‘’ Faital Pro 15PR400
2‘’ Beyma CP750Ti
B&C ME60
Behind the scene:
DBX DriveRack PA2
Crown XLS 2002 (for the tops)
Crown XLS 2502
The project is currently at the end of its first phase, and there's still work to be done. For example, the horn is due to be replaced, along with a potentially better tuning of the port, and a fair amount of cosmetic finishing.
The system is currently located in my living room, which is not particularly practical for listening at correct volumes and which has some modal resonance problems. When the warm weather arrives, I'll do a series of outdoor measurements, which I'll post here if you're interested!
For the moment, and after several weeks of critical listening, I'm happy with the result as a first project, although I'm not reinventing the wheel, this simple system ticks most of the boxes in the desired specifications.
My first criticism would be that the vent perhaps deserves better tuning. Although I've followed the measurements given by WinISD, I feel there's more to be done. Fortunately, I've made sure that the vent can be modified more or less easily.
Although the compression is effective in its frequency ranges and pleasant, I'm missing quite a bit of information beyond 10kHz, or even lower. That's why I'd like to add a remote tweeter, (Fostex T90A, Visaton TL16H etc), with its share of questions, but we'll certainly have the opportunity to discuss them!
There's still some work to be done on the insulation, but after several tests with different materials, 45mm cotton panel glued on the internal sides and lower back panel seems to be giving the best results for the moment.
The ME60 horns were chosen temporarily to start listening, but are due to be replaced. Not having had the opportunity to make comparisons with other horns, my criticism is limited for the moment. I'd love to produce my own horns, and that will probably be the subject of another dedicated post.
Here are few pictures of the fabrication:
Feel free to ask for details about the design, or even the plans! One of the goals of this project is to provide everything needed for anyone who wants to build it themselves and improve upon it!
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Interesting and straight forward.
PR400 looks like low Qts with Fs of 35 Hz not too bad! for a 15"
I would assume plain and normal 4th order tuned below Fs
What did you end up with? that you dont like
PR400 looks like low Qts with Fs of 35 Hz not too bad! for a 15"
I would assume plain and normal 4th order tuned below Fs
What did you end up with? that you dont like
Yes this PR400 is a beast, I am really impressed by its specifications, at this price.
For the moment, I don't dislike anything categorically, but with the actual listening room and the measurements far too approximate, I'm waiting for the measurements to be taken in good conditions before making any changes. With the current tuning at 38Hz, everything's going pretty well in this room, it's fairly balanced and to my taste, but I think the bass extension will be a bit shy in a different space. Only a test elsewhere will tell!
For the moment, I don't dislike anything categorically, but with the actual listening room and the measurements far too approximate, I'm waiting for the measurements to be taken in good conditions before making any changes. With the current tuning at 38Hz, everything's going pretty well in this room, it's fairly balanced and to my taste, but I think the bass extension will be a bit shy in a different space. Only a test elsewhere will tell!
I love those bass cabinets! Great work.
I also have Driverack PA2, and I have a love and hate relationship with it. I love its ergonomics and intuitive DSP/room correction, but ultimately I ended up switching to discrete analogue active crossover for higher transparency, which was a pain because DSP/room correction had to be added separately on music server. Any plans for eventually building a passive crossover or different x-over/dsp?
Thank you !
I understand your feelings about the PA2. Yes it's quite intuitive and efficient for the job it has to do, but it's clear this equipement was made for PA. The interface is messy sometimes, with with very little information about what's going on, and a lack of visual precision. Sometimes less visual informations brings focus to hearing, but not here. I chose it to keep a clean chain of pro audio connectors, and for the price, it seems to be doing its job against its competitors.
from a sound point of view, I can't give an opinion, as I haven't yet tested an alternative. I suppose there could be a problem with its 48kHz maximum sampling rate lol.
In the future, I'd love to try this alternative with a 2x4 or bigger from miniDSP, with this kind of modification for 19-inch integration by EndersShadow
I understand your feelings about the PA2. Yes it's quite intuitive and efficient for the job it has to do, but it's clear this equipement was made for PA. The interface is messy sometimes, with with very little information about what's going on, and a lack of visual precision. Sometimes less visual informations brings focus to hearing, but not here. I chose it to keep a clean chain of pro audio connectors, and for the price, it seems to be doing its job against its competitors.
from a sound point of view, I can't give an opinion, as I haven't yet tested an alternative. I suppose there could be a problem with its 48kHz maximum sampling rate lol.
In the future, I'd love to try this alternative with a 2x4 or bigger from miniDSP, with this kind of modification for 19-inch integration by EndersShadow
Very nice setup.Add some hi shelving on beymas 6db/octave from 8 -9 khrz. the horns are constant directivity and needs EQ up there.Try cut the drivers at minimum 900 hz to 1khz or 1100 khz to soften the driver if it sound harsh. Use only everyware 24db LR filters and try BW in low end. I own 6 of these b&c horns it is excellent but is a long throw 60 - 40 narrow dispersion you need big rooms or outdoor instal to get what they can.Last one add delay to the woofer to meet the driver diaphragm.Tip change the dbx with better dsp like electro voice dynacord mini dsp or ashley xta... you be happy surprised how good sound the high frequencies. The 48 khz sampling rate have nothing to do with sound quality is all about better designed units electronic components and algorithms.DBX is a fair machine and do the job right (i own one) but is the low category from the market.
Thank you @full speed & @mayhem13 for the advice !
My setting were not far from your suggestions @full speed.
These ME60s do seem limited in this room, I don't have enough distance between them and my listening spot to appreciate them fully. I'm actually trying to find a better waveguide and I'm slowly falling into the waveguide design rabbithole !
Next step in this project is to add an external tweeter! Like the Fostex T90A. I'm pretty confident about this choice, but I have some doubts about the wiring to be done. What do you think? As I have relatively high power at the terminals of my compression drivers, in any case much higher than this T90A can theoretically handle, would it be better for me to dedicate an amplifier, and therefore a channel, to it?
I'm also wondering what the ideal amplifier would be!
If you have any info on the subject, I'd love to hear it!
My setting were not far from your suggestions @full speed.
These ME60s do seem limited in this room, I don't have enough distance between them and my listening spot to appreciate them fully. I'm actually trying to find a better waveguide and I'm slowly falling into the waveguide design rabbithole !
Next step in this project is to add an external tweeter! Like the Fostex T90A. I'm pretty confident about this choice, but I have some doubts about the wiring to be done. What do you think? As I have relatively high power at the terminals of my compression drivers, in any case much higher than this T90A can theoretically handle, would it be better for me to dedicate an amplifier, and therefore a channel, to it?
I'm also wondering what the ideal amplifier would be!
If you have any info on the subject, I'd love to hear it!
Yes you can add twitter together with 2 inch driver just with mkp capacitor in series you have to experiment with different values start from 4.7μf 3.3μf 2.2μf 1.2μf 0.8 μf and see were the twitter adds the right amount of high's and crispness after the roll of point from driver.Some other members here may have better suggestions. Another option is to add other amp than crown xls series in high's these amps is not do well on high frequencies for house critical listen.For bar clubs or outdoor is perfect.If you are on a limited budget by one crown xli800 it is AB class more pleasant sound on high's and perfect power for drivers twitters (i use 5 of these for drivers).If you want to spend more by QSC GX5 class H or electro voice the smallest from Q series or yamaha .By the way i run the xls amps (7 of them) only stereo for tops or bridge for subs more amps from dynacord crown and electro voice complete my setups.
The JBL 2380 or it's P-Audio clone (in plastic) are good for indoor use with a 2" driver. It was used in the Calpamos (with the Faital HF-201 CD and the 15PR400 woofer) and by many (also me) in other configs aslo. You need a wider dispertion indoor as you sit closer. That B&C is more fit for longer distances i think.
Thank you for the advices !
I'll experiment with different capacitor values on this tweeter matter.
About the CD waveguide, I'm going to try experimenting with modelling on ath/akabak and printed in 3d. I'll post progress here.
These B&Cs may not have been the best for indoor use, especially in such a small space. Maybe they'll come in handy when the system goes outdoors.
I'll experiment with different capacitor values on this tweeter matter.
About the CD waveguide, I'm going to try experimenting with modelling on ath/akabak and printed in 3d. I'll post progress here.
These B&Cs may not have been the best for indoor use, especially in such a small space. Maybe they'll come in handy when the system goes outdoors.
Hello there !
Improvements were made on the system:
- New waveguides for the CP750TI (about 40cm Ø), made with plaster, based on the R-OSSE formula from @mabat (thanks for the Ath tool, and your dedication !), giving the highs a beautiful smoothness and a better definition compared to the B&C ME60. Improvements on the shape, design and materials are on the way.
- CD/waveguides stands for home use, providing isolation from the cabinet, made out of stainless steel. (Better than the pile of books used until now lol).
(Waveguides were made with 3d printing, the first one was fully 3d printed with PLA, but with 4 endless days of printing, I chose to give plaster a try, and it turns out well !)
And more to come ! I just received the steel supply to work on the structure on which speakers will be installed for listening parties outside. I will post the final results here 😉
Improvements were made on the system:
- New waveguides for the CP750TI (about 40cm Ø), made with plaster, based on the R-OSSE formula from @mabat (thanks for the Ath tool, and your dedication !), giving the highs a beautiful smoothness and a better definition compared to the B&C ME60. Improvements on the shape, design and materials are on the way.
- CD/waveguides stands for home use, providing isolation from the cabinet, made out of stainless steel. (Better than the pile of books used until now lol).
(Waveguides were made with 3d printing, the first one was fully 3d printed with PLA, but with 4 endless days of printing, I chose to give plaster a try, and it turns out well !)
And more to come ! I just received the steel supply to work on the structure on which speakers will be installed for listening parties outside. I will post the final results here 😉
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