I think I might not have been clear enough phrasing my original question.
I'm not talking about changing the actual values for the components, I'm talking about f.e. the difference between a 3 euro capacitor and a 14 euro capacitor that have the same voltage and Uf specs.
Filters/crossovers can be built using parts having wildly different costs, so my question related to whether it matters to invest in more expensive versions of the same specced components for speakers that cost 300-400 euros a piece.
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Pygmy,
How are you going to test the difference between a $xxx inductor that may saturate under different conditions, or have a different field interaction with nearby parts, or have a different ESR and SRF than the part that the original speaker designer used for testing? Just qualitative testing, or just relying on part specifications (if you have simple or even detailed part specifications)?
You are obviously at the pointy end of performance using expensive drivers, so just wondering how 'pointy' you want to go with confirming you end up with as good a speaker as was originally designed and tested.
How are you going to test the difference between a $xxx inductor that may saturate under different conditions, or have a different field interaction with nearby parts, or have a different ESR and SRF than the part that the original speaker designer used for testing? Just qualitative testing, or just relying on part specifications (if you have simple or even detailed part specifications)?
You are obviously at the pointy end of performance using expensive drivers, so just wondering how 'pointy' you want to go with confirming you end up with as good a speaker as was originally designed and tested.
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As a general rule in audio, there is little correlation between component price and component electrical quality. This is because some people have found that it is surprisingly easy to take money off other people simply by telling a good story - you can even boost sales by increasing the price. About the only exception is wound components, where a better inductor/transformer may be unavoidably more expensive - but even then higher price does not necessarily guarantee better performance. For a speaker crossover the best components to use are the ones used by the original designer; any 'upgrade' may move you away from the designer's intentions.
If you ask someone who's profession is sound ( an audio engineer or a musician) dark means a lack of high freqs. If you ask a subjectivist here on DIY audio they can't tell you. So how can it mean anything to anyone else, even another subjectivist. They live in there own little worlds.
I'm not trying to hijack a thread here but can anyone suggest a US based source for crossover components. Is there one place that is known to carry most everything? It seems like I have to source the components I need from more than one place to get what I need. That means additional freight for each order.
Parts Express has everything to make crossovers, but I haven’t ordered any crossover parts from them. I go to several different places to get what I really want instead.
That's exactly what I'm wondering - is there any difference between a "standard" 14 euro coil specced 15uf 0.37ohm, and a 25 euro coil by a big audiograde brand also specced 15uf 0.37ohm?
And what if the latter used thicker wire, like 1.4mm instead of 1.2mm?
And if another coil specs 15uf but *less* than 0.37ohm, would that be better, or would it in fact change the whole equation and thus performance?
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The difference between 14 euro and 25 euro is 11 euro. For the extra money you get a better story and a warm glow inside when you tell your friends how much you paid.
Thicker wire but the same resistance means more turns, which may mean different core. Be aware that there is more to coils than inductance and DC resistance.
Smaller coil resistance may or may not be an advantage. It all depends on what the original designer intended.
Thicker wire but the same resistance means more turns, which may mean different core. Be aware that there is more to coils than inductance and DC resistance.
Smaller coil resistance may or may not be an advantage. It all depends on what the original designer intended.
11 euros isn't much, of course. But when applied to *all* parts of the crossover network, it can mean spending 60 euros or 170 euros per speaker for the crossover / filter. That is quite a difference - building speakers costing 300 euros a piece turns into 410 euros - a 200 Euro price difference for the pair..
And for 200 euros more, you could have gone for a more expensive kit - with standard components.. 🙂
Which begs the question - cheaper kit with expensive crossover, or more expensive kit with standard crossover components?
And for 200 euros more, you could have gone for a more expensive kit - with standard components.. 🙂
Which begs the question - cheaper kit with expensive crossover, or more expensive kit with standard crossover components?
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While opinions may vary. I think it's actually an easy answer.
More expensive kit that should have better drivers and provide a better value per money spent.
More expensive kit that should have better drivers and provide a better value per money spent.
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Yes. For electromechanical items like transducers it is more likely that increased cost brings increased performance, so if extra money is available it is better spent on drivers than capacitors etc.
just skip DF96 usual comment ....
caps and resistor sound a lot different ... avoid mox ones
trust Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
claritycaps is a good start , 250v are cheapers....just bypass
M.persy or partconnex
caps and resistor sound a lot different ... avoid mox ones
trust Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
claritycaps is a good start , 250v are cheapers....just bypass
M.persy or partconnex
Are you suggesting that cheap drivers and expensive crossover components is the best way to spend money?
Diminishing returns.. but one dutch company uses extreme crossover parts with fairly cheap drivers
In another thread I just saw these crossovers:
Kef Q900
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-Q900-crossover.jpg
Kef Q750
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-Q750-crossover.jpg
Kef LS50
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-LS50-crossover.jpg
Kef R100c
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-R600c-crossover.jpg
Those components look pretty shoddy to me (small awg inductors, iron core, electrolytic cap), yet everyone raves about the LS50.
Is Kef doing their designs injustice be using parts like these and can their speakers be improved by rebuilding the crossovers with 'decent' parts?
Or is this proof the quality of the components doesn't really matter all that much, since everyone seems to like the sound of these speakers?
Kef Q900
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-Q900-crossover.jpg
Kef Q750
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-Q750-crossover.jpg
Kef LS50
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-LS50-crossover.jpg
Kef R100c
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KEF-R600c-crossover.jpg
Those components look pretty shoddy to me (small awg inductors, iron core, electrolytic cap), yet everyone raves about the LS50.
Is Kef doing their designs injustice be using parts like these and can their speakers be improved by rebuilding the crossovers with 'decent' parts?
Or is this proof the quality of the components doesn't really matter all that much, since everyone seems to like the sound of these speakers?
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I found actual measurements of LS50 before and after upgrading the crossover here:
Kef LS50 Crossover upgrade - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
Looks like it does make a fair difference, but it comes at a price..
Kef LS50 Crossover upgrade - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
Looks like it does make a fair difference, but it comes at a price..
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