I'm interested in cloning a pair of Ferrograph S1 loudspeakers, as I've read good things about them and I'm a vintage enthusiast. I've found a crossover diagram at http://www.morphet.org.uk/images/ferro/ferro-s1man/xover_cct_75.gif, and I think I understand the construction of the transmission line/port. I'm seeking any knowledge regarding the drive units employed, apart from the Kef B139 which are self evident. I've read that the mid-range and tweeter units are Goodmans. However, I've also read that later models employ Audax units. By current reckoning, the most likely candidate for the tweeter appears to be the Goodmans DT3. Can anyone offer any info regarding the mid-range unit, and/or confirm the tweeter ID.
Many thanks,
Mark
Many thanks,
Mark
Hi,
Might be good to have a revivalist dream of making a "new" vintage speaker with brand new drivers, but it might turn into a nightmare if you are not prepared for that project with everything needed like a lab, measurement equipment, vintage drivers and all... 🙂
""Ferrograph S1s (earlier model) with the Goodmans 4" cone midranges and the DT3 tweeters.""
So, if you are not using similar drivers, look below at a comparison between this two different loudspeaker systems, but in this case with a lot in common. Look at the two frequency responses from the vintage Ferrograph S1 loudspeaker and from Troels PRELUDE. After saying this, if you really want to make a vintage speaker as your project, to make it really difficult (probably we will still be here next year), please be my guest... 😀
It's better if you choose a project with available drivers in the market, it's my opinion. 🙄
Ferrograph S1 Monitor vs. PRELUDE (Troels Gravesen)
Ferrograph Tape Recorders
PRELUDE
Flexunits 10 C 77 25 10 KAP
C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD
SS D2905/990000 1" Tweeter
Might be good to have a revivalist dream of making a "new" vintage speaker with brand new drivers, but it might turn into a nightmare if you are not prepared for that project with everything needed like a lab, measurement equipment, vintage drivers and all... 🙂
""Ferrograph S1s (earlier model) with the Goodmans 4" cone midranges and the DT3 tweeters.""
So, if you are not using similar drivers, look below at a comparison between this two different loudspeaker systems, but in this case with a lot in common. Look at the two frequency responses from the vintage Ferrograph S1 loudspeaker and from Troels PRELUDE. After saying this, if you really want to make a vintage speaker as your project, to make it really difficult (probably we will still be here next year), please be my guest... 😀
It's better if you choose a project with available drivers in the market, it's my opinion. 🙄
Ferrograph S1 Monitor vs. PRELUDE (Troels Gravesen)
Ferrograph Tape Recorders
PRELUDE
Flexunits 10 C 77 25 10 KAP
C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD
SS D2905/990000 1" Tweeter
Attachments
My attraction to the S1's is their size i.e. they are lowish stand mounters (or large bookshelf speakers as they say in north America), their use of largish woofer with interest loading, and that reputedly have awesome mid frequency range clarity.
Perhaps I should wait for a pair to come up on EBay? I would consider alternatives. I am interested in the older designs that use woofers larger than 8"! I can see the benefits of IMF transmission line speakers, or old Kef designs, but the shipping cost would be significant unless available locally (Vancouver, BC).
Best,
Mark
Perhaps I should wait for a pair to come up on EBay? I would consider alternatives. I am interested in the older designs that use woofers larger than 8"! I can see the benefits of IMF transmission line speakers, or old Kef designs, but the shipping cost would be significant unless available locally (Vancouver, BC).
Best,
Mark
No problem, Goodmans drivers are very expensive too.
I will be certain that you can use Audax drivers, this, after I see all T/S specifications for the Goodmans, as actual replacements.
Maybe (that's) a project for a second audio system (yours), if you have to wait. It will also be a good vintage/museum loudspeaker. Keep posting. Good luck.
I will be certain that you can use Audax drivers, this, after I see all T/S specifications for the Goodmans, as actual replacements.
Maybe (that's) a project for a second audio system (yours), if you have to wait. It will also be a good vintage/museum loudspeaker. Keep posting. Good luck.
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Have you considered doing a modern interpretation using Tang Band drivers?
They do an oval woofer which should work in a box of Ferrograph S1 size.
Actually they do 2 oval woofers, I was thinking of the bigger one which is about 8"x12".
(W8Q-1071)
They also do a nice 4" driver with underhung motor (good!)
(W4-1720)
As for the tweeter: Is it the same as in the Linn Isobarik?
If so a shop here in the UK recommends Scanspeak D2008/851100 as a replacement.
(Falcon Acoustics | The Leading DIY Speaker Parts and Kit Supplier since 1972)
They do other replacement tweeters for IMFs, Radfords etc too.
They do an oval woofer which should work in a box of Ferrograph S1 size.
Actually they do 2 oval woofers, I was thinking of the bigger one which is about 8"x12".
(W8Q-1071)
They also do a nice 4" driver with underhung motor (good!)
(W4-1720)
As for the tweeter: Is it the same as in the Linn Isobarik?
If so a shop here in the UK recommends Scanspeak D2008/851100 as a replacement.
(Falcon Acoustics | The Leading DIY Speaker Parts and Kit Supplier since 1972)
They do other replacement tweeters for IMFs, Radfords etc too.
Hi,
There is nothing much special about the S1's. They are not TL's,
they won't do really good bass for their size, they appear to be
a version of aperiodically loading a B139 in a compact cabinet.
There is nothing to suggest they have awesome midrange clarity.
The crossover is overly complex, won't work without the exact
drivers, and I've never heard a decent Goodmans dome tweeter.
The combination of the B139 very limited excursion (note the
low power handling) and the impossibly of getting the correct
specification drivers for any of them begs the question why ?
You will just end spending a load of money on something that
very likely won't turn out well and will not be near the original.
Just buy a used pair of say B&W DM6's (recap the electrolytics).
Under £400 for a much better classic vintage 3 way, fully original.
rgds, sreten.
There is nothing much special about the S1's. They are not TL's,
they won't do really good bass for their size, they appear to be
a version of aperiodically loading a B139 in a compact cabinet.
There is nothing to suggest they have awesome midrange clarity.
The crossover is overly complex, won't work without the exact
drivers, and I've never heard a decent Goodmans dome tweeter.
The combination of the B139 very limited excursion (note the
low power handling) and the impossibly of getting the correct
specification drivers for any of them begs the question why ?
You will just end spending a load of money on something that
very likely won't turn out well and will not be near the original.
Just buy a used pair of say B&W DM6's (recap the electrolytics).
Under £400 for a much better classic vintage 3 way, fully original.
rgds, sreten.
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This should work fine. "Pair of Vintage Goodmans Goodwood Midrange Drivers" on ebay.ca.
Although they are similar drivers (can not attest more), I don't have the specifications for said drivers, but/only their physical dimension and T/S parameter DCR for 8 Ohm speakers with drivers 1 & 2 DCR: 7.3 & 7.6. (Ebay/poster website and pic.)
Audioless Winnipeg Group!
Goodmans-Goodwood
Pair OF Vintage Goodmans Goodwood Midrange Drivers | eBay
Although they are similar drivers (can not attest more), I don't have the specifications for said drivers, but/only their physical dimension and T/S parameter DCR for 8 Ohm speakers with drivers 1 & 2 DCR: 7.3 & 7.6. (Ebay/poster website and pic.)
Audioless Winnipeg Group!
Goodmans-Goodwood
Pair OF Vintage Goodmans Goodwood Midrange Drivers | eBay
Attachments
As I'm getting more general loudspeaker advice, maybe I should backtrack a bit. I'm currently using Marantz MA5 mono-block amps (recapped) with B & W DM2a'a (also recapped). I listen to mainly 70's/80's rock music and like to go loud on occasion. I like this combo, but the DM2a's are a little hazy in the mid-range, and when driven hard, the DM2a's can't cope. So my thoughts started out at looking at maximum output specs. Consequently, I was attracted to Kef loudspeakers, e.g. 104/2, 105/3 or 107's. However, as I'd ideally like a stand-mounter, I've also have considered JBL L112s & 4311B's. The I reread the Ferrograph review in Hi-Fi World, and also Gramophone, and this sounded like what I was looking for. As these are not particularly abundant, I thought I'd clone them.
Views seem to be mixed as to whether this is a good idea. So your advice would be greatly appreciated. I also have a Leak Stereo 60 sporting good quality caps and tubes!
Best Mark
Views seem to be mixed as to whether this is a good idea. So your advice would be greatly appreciated. I also have a Leak Stereo 60 sporting good quality caps and tubes!
Best Mark
Hi Mark,
As someone said in the floor of a German engine factory (knowing about your job after learning for some years is not... if you understand me),
Substitute here "engine" with speaker or "multiple choice test" with mix-and-match drivers. NPI
Just as sreten said (and I, in my initial post) is not possible to make a speaker work without ... the drivers?! The "omelet-without-eggs" thing remember?
So, here we are again.
Look at the JBL L100 Century Troels project for inspiration here.
Your vintage speaker you mention "B&W DM2a" is very problematic. Look at another example here (Vintage Spendor BC1) ...for inspiration.
Now you can start with a very good kit of speakers or doing your own. If doing your own start with the Mid driver you like most. I think here a 4" or 5" would be adequate for you. This his the starting point for a complete speaker system to have in mind. If not just start with a 3. party kit. Examples:
A 60L 3-way (~60W speaker/driver) Eton 11.2 with supertweeter (25K) that you seam to like Solen Electronique Inc.
Duetta - April 2012 - Loudspeakermagazine 2012 | Loudspeakerbuilding
If you buy all the parts in the same shop, you can usually have a new crossover designed for you or pay a little extra.
Solen Free Crossover Design!
Madisound Crossover Design with LEAP Software
If you start with a good quality mid like, SB Acoustics SB12MNRX25-04, 4" midrange- 4 ohms The Madisound Speaker Store
or you can go with a more sensitive driver, Audax HM100Z0 4" Aerogel Midrange The Madisound Speaker Store
Also look at other DIY Louspeakers project kits by Troels.
If you want to achieve any positive results, you have to start disclosing your priorities. 😀
As someone said in the floor of a German engine factory (knowing about your job after learning for some years is not... if you understand me),
Substitute here "engine" with speaker or "multiple choice test" with mix-and-match drivers. NPI
Just as sreten said (and I, in my initial post) is not possible to make a speaker work without ... the drivers?! The "omelet-without-eggs" thing remember?
So, here we are again.
Look at the JBL L100 Century Troels project for inspiration here.
Your vintage speaker you mention "B&W DM2a" is very problematic. Look at another example here (Vintage Spendor BC1) ...for inspiration.
Now you can start with a very good kit of speakers or doing your own. If doing your own start with the Mid driver you like most. I think here a 4" or 5" would be adequate for you. This his the starting point for a complete speaker system to have in mind. If not just start with a 3. party kit. Examples:
A 60L 3-way (~60W speaker/driver) Eton 11.2 with supertweeter (25K) that you seam to like Solen Electronique Inc.
Duetta - April 2012 - Loudspeakermagazine 2012 | Loudspeakerbuilding
If you buy all the parts in the same shop, you can usually have a new crossover designed for you or pay a little extra.
Solen Free Crossover Design!
Madisound Crossover Design with LEAP Software
If you start with a good quality mid like, SB Acoustics SB12MNRX25-04, 4" midrange- 4 ohms The Madisound Speaker Store
or you can go with a more sensitive driver, Audax HM100Z0 4" Aerogel Midrange The Madisound Speaker Store
Also look at other DIY Louspeakers project kits by Troels.
If you want to achieve any positive results, you have to start disclosing your priorities. 😀
The pregnant penguine AKA B&W DM 6 is a really good speaker and less fuzzy with amps and room then the DM7.
Thanks for the advice. I have been looking at Troels's site, and the L100 project. Hence my interest in the 4311 and L112's. I'm not up to designing a DIY loudspeaker from scratch due to time limitations (I run my own business plus three young boys!). However, I could modify a cross-over for example with good guidance, or refinish the cabinets.
My listening tastes are mainly rock - think Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, but also Jazz (Miles Davis) and female vocals. So low frequency power handling and mid-range clarity are primary goals. I don't get to sit down and "listen" much, so imaging is not a priority.
I'm interested is the positive comments about the Penguins. Do these go load? What are the issues associated with the DM2a's? How would the JBL models mentioned so far compare?
Thanks guys,
Mark
My listening tastes are mainly rock - think Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, but also Jazz (Miles Davis) and female vocals. So low frequency power handling and mid-range clarity are primary goals. I don't get to sit down and "listen" much, so imaging is not a priority.
I'm interested is the positive comments about the Penguins. Do these go load? What are the issues associated with the DM2a's? How would the JBL models mentioned so far compare?
Thanks guys,
Mark
Hi,
The DM6's should go loud enough for most.
FWIW I really like the trade offs in this design :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
YMMV but I think it is a great use of high value drivers *
as a means to an end, I doubt they'd disappoint anyone.
They perfectly fit your description of what you want.
rgds, sreten.
* In that "better", i.e. more expensive drivers won't add much.
The drivers are exploited very well to lead to the end result.
IMO its the nearest thing to a budget WATT/Puppy you can get.
The DM6's should go loud enough for most.
FWIW I really like the trade offs in this design :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
YMMV but I think it is a great use of high value drivers *
as a means to an end, I doubt they'd disappoint anyone.
They perfectly fit your description of what you want.
rgds, sreten.
* In that "better", i.e. more expensive drivers won't add much.
The drivers are exploited very well to lead to the end result.
IMO its the nearest thing to a budget WATT/Puppy you can get.
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