A Ridiculous Comparison in Which
The Author Claims to Learn
The Purpose of DIY
My first fullrangers were FE207E's and I stuck them into old KLH 33 (26-liter cabs) on old 901 stands. Originally, this was just to break them in, but they do pretty well and it's incredibly room-friendly to have them on the 901 stands. It has been a long process to find out what these un-engineered cabs can and cannot do (can't: rap, kick drum, deep bass). Ultimately, after trying lots of circuits, I just stuck them in corners and changed my musical preference to jazz.
Minor frustration: lots of room reflections in this 11x11 foot room, tricky to position.
Major frustration: jazz orchestra and big brass don't have real sizzle and grunt to my ears. (This is not a problem affecting all single driver designs, as I've heard Bob Brines' cabs with Lowther DX-3 and they growl just fine.)
So I have been searching for something that will play Mingus and sound like live brass. Recently I got a pair of beat-up 1980-ish Klipsch Heresy I speakers. Suddenly Mingus studio recordings sound very lively, completely believable.
However, the Heresy's only over-achieve on brass and orchestra. Female vocals are downright bad. There's more bass, kick drum is not bad but as the bass gets lower, it gets muddy (could be the room, but ignoring that, the FE207E's roll off nicely in comparison so it's a choice of quantity vs. quality).
The last thing is room reflections. The Heresy's seem very directional and they are a snap to set up -- it seems there are fewer room reflections. The un-engineered FE207E cabs seem to generate copious amounts of room reflections by comparison. After lots of experimentation, I think this is just the nature of the designs.
Oh and the lesson I learned about DIY is that while the Heresy's are very good speakers (on what they do well), they are obviously generic and designed to be "average" in all rooms. DIY is the only way to get something really tailored to the room and musical preferences. (I doubt one speaker will ever do it all for me.)
The next thing I'd like to try is the best (worst?) of both worlds: a BR (or other resonant) cab where the driver loads a huge FLH (rectangular wood horn consisting of two conical sections). This might have the directivity of the Heresy's and maybe some of the sonic slam of the Harvey's. (They will go into corners.)
(Thank you again Scottmoose for your BLH/FLH FR chart in the "Absolute best FE206E" thread.)
The Author Claims to Learn
The Purpose of DIY
My first fullrangers were FE207E's and I stuck them into old KLH 33 (26-liter cabs) on old 901 stands. Originally, this was just to break them in, but they do pretty well and it's incredibly room-friendly to have them on the 901 stands. It has been a long process to find out what these un-engineered cabs can and cannot do (can't: rap, kick drum, deep bass). Ultimately, after trying lots of circuits, I just stuck them in corners and changed my musical preference to jazz.
Minor frustration: lots of room reflections in this 11x11 foot room, tricky to position.
Major frustration: jazz orchestra and big brass don't have real sizzle and grunt to my ears. (This is not a problem affecting all single driver designs, as I've heard Bob Brines' cabs with Lowther DX-3 and they growl just fine.)
So I have been searching for something that will play Mingus and sound like live brass. Recently I got a pair of beat-up 1980-ish Klipsch Heresy I speakers. Suddenly Mingus studio recordings sound very lively, completely believable.
However, the Heresy's only over-achieve on brass and orchestra. Female vocals are downright bad. There's more bass, kick drum is not bad but as the bass gets lower, it gets muddy (could be the room, but ignoring that, the FE207E's roll off nicely in comparison so it's a choice of quantity vs. quality).
The last thing is room reflections. The Heresy's seem very directional and they are a snap to set up -- it seems there are fewer room reflections. The un-engineered FE207E cabs seem to generate copious amounts of room reflections by comparison. After lots of experimentation, I think this is just the nature of the designs.
Oh and the lesson I learned about DIY is that while the Heresy's are very good speakers (on what they do well), they are obviously generic and designed to be "average" in all rooms. DIY is the only way to get something really tailored to the room and musical preferences. (I doubt one speaker will ever do it all for me.)
The next thing I'd like to try is the best (worst?) of both worlds: a BR (or other resonant) cab where the driver loads a huge FLH (rectangular wood horn consisting of two conical sections). This might have the directivity of the Heresy's and maybe some of the sonic slam of the Harvey's. (They will go into corners.)
(Thank you again Scottmoose for your BLH/FLH FR chart in the "Absolute best FE206E" thread.)
you might be able to tweak the Heresy's xover a bit - check over at Klipsch forums - I've applied mild eq from a Reckhorn box on them at times (more warmth - more mud). FWIW here's a sensitivity comparison of a $13 Sammi 8" wideband in Bk20 blh assisted by Selenium ST324 - although "loud" I'm not fond of this blh sound - it dfell apart on some drums compared to a Karlson 12 loaded with 80oz magnet 1114 coax w. APT50 drving the coax horn
it didn't help Heresy's LF to be elevated this much off the floor. Nirvana Super 10 on axis is as strong up high as ST324
Heresy are like toys on kickdrum compared to 'some' Karlson setups
it didn't help Heresy's LF to be elevated this much off the floor. Nirvana Super 10 on axis is as strong up high as ST324
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Heresy are like toys on kickdrum compared to 'some' Karlson setups
Did you throw the towel in on your Mantaray project?
I was really looking forward to seeing that project evolve.
Perhaps after ripping your hair out with the "Heresy Klipsch Project" you'll come back home to "Altec Mantaray Project"... 
I was really looking forward to seeing that project evolve. Perhaps after ripping your hair out with the "Heresy Klipsch Project" you'll come back home to "Altec Mantaray Project"... Hi Monte Verdi,
Not to worry, sir. It is still just on paper, but fleshed out a bit more. Imagine a big 3-foot plywood cube (final version will need to be somewhat smaller).
Now imagine that one side of the cube has a Mantaray-esque horn, loaded by an 8" Fostex. The remaining box interior is what's left for the BR part, with a port out the back, corner loaded. You could think of it simply as a big, dumb cubic BR with a waveguide for some directivity.
All dimensions strictly ridiculous at this point!
Not to worry, sir. It is still just on paper, but fleshed out a bit more. Imagine a big 3-foot plywood cube (final version will need to be somewhat smaller).
Now imagine that one side of the cube has a Mantaray-esque horn, loaded by an 8" Fostex. The remaining box interior is what's left for the BR part, with a port out the back, corner loaded. You could think of it simply as a big, dumb cubic BR with a waveguide for some directivity.
All dimensions strictly ridiculous at this point!
Sweet! Yes do pop over, sir. My job is gone, my employer bankrupt, but for some reason, I'm still here in my office. 🙂
I believe they have to close to restructure, at least that's what all the talk is about. I don't think you'll be out long. Perhaps a weekend or week till they change over.
Klipsh ideas:
Just kicking around diy ideas;,
How about a DIY Klipsh Jubliee (mid-bass), w/ Karlsons for subs?
bet you'd like it a lot better than a br (or other resonant) cab loading a FLH.
(and ROUND, NON-METAL/plastic horns for mids, remember the A/Bing the difference--pretty obvious wasn't it?)
Or for just a simple, add-on bit of bass with some KICK, just add the K-15s.
(freddi might have other ideas...)
--And--
If your going to the work of building from scratch;
I'd definetly go sealed for the horn compression chamber, not BR!,
Round is better than rectangular,
and have you ever heard a conical that wasn't REALLY colored?
(not read some expert saying it has no colorations, but ever heard even one, that wasnt?)
just my 2 cents...
Just kicking around diy ideas;,
How about a DIY Klipsh Jubliee (mid-bass), w/ Karlsons for subs?
bet you'd like it a lot better than a br (or other resonant) cab loading a FLH.
(and ROUND, NON-METAL/plastic horns for mids, remember the A/Bing the difference--pretty obvious wasn't it?)
Or for just a simple, add-on bit of bass with some KICK, just add the K-15s.
(freddi might have other ideas...)
--And--
If your going to the work of building from scratch;
I'd definetly go sealed for the horn compression chamber, not BR!,
Round is better than rectangular,
and have you ever heard a conical that wasn't REALLY colored?
(not read some expert saying it has no colorations, but ever heard even one, that wasnt?)
just my 2 cents...
or if you're into the altec thing;
http://www.wmeckle.com/ALTEC/Index.htm
state-of-the-art only 50 years ago? 🙂
but for that much work...
http://www.wmeckle.com/ALTEC/Index.htm
state-of-the-art only 50 years ago? 🙂
but for that much work...
Hi guys, good advice and I appreciate it!
Robert, may I ask -- for your Le Cleac'h petal horn prototype (the paper-mache one), did you use the LeCleac'h spreadsheet "Calcul de pavillon axial" au Francaise? Or were you able to find one in a different language?
Also, when you say "non-metal" on materials, is wood acceptable for LeCleac'h, with petal construction, or are you lathing / casting / molding yours?
Robert, may I ask -- for your Le Cleac'h petal horn prototype (the paper-mache one), did you use the LeCleac'h spreadsheet "Calcul de pavillon axial" au Francaise? Or were you able to find one in a different language?
Also, when you say "non-metal" on materials, is wood acceptable for LeCleac'h, with petal construction, or are you lathing / casting / molding yours?
Robert,
Yes, the spreadsheet sez: "Calcul de pavillon axial" @ the top; it's a 2007 version Jeffrey Jackson sent me; might be a later one?
You can plug in any number of "facets" from rectangular, to petals (odd number better), to very high number to get data to make round horn.
Yes, wood is more than acceptable.
The plastic, like Oris, resonate/vibrate pretty good, you can hear/feel them too.
Martin's are fiberglass.
You can damp them with something on the outside...
I just like the way wood, and paper are self-damping, and sound.
Jeffrey told me he had used alum rectangular horns (w/ altec 288s? or rcas?), they sounded so bad he didn't want to mess w/ horns/compression drivers for a couple years.
Then tried Bruce Edgar wood Tractrix, they were so much better he started working with them again.
Has progressed to LeCleac'h for upper-mids, and with cone drivers.
Yes, the spreadsheet sez: "Calcul de pavillon axial" @ the top; it's a 2007 version Jeffrey Jackson sent me; might be a later one?
You can plug in any number of "facets" from rectangular, to petals (odd number better), to very high number to get data to make round horn.
Yes, wood is more than acceptable.
The plastic, like Oris, resonate/vibrate pretty good, you can hear/feel them too.
Martin's are fiberglass.
You can damp them with something on the outside...
I just like the way wood, and paper are self-damping, and sound.
Jeffrey told me he had used alum rectangular horns (w/ altec 288s? or rcas?), they sounded so bad he didn't want to mess w/ horns/compression drivers for a couple years.
Then tried Bruce Edgar wood Tractrix, they were so much better he started working with them again.
Has progressed to LeCleac'h for upper-mids, and with cone drivers.
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