I reckon they'll struggle a bit, as they'll likely run out of excursion right where most rock / metal has all it's energy. Probably do a passable job though.
I think I'll be going for FE207E in an MLTL. People have commented on the MLTL sounding a lot better than bass reflex, in which performance areas is the benefit evident ? Is it just that there is more bass or is there more to it than that ? Does the correction circuit cause any (signal) losses or can these be negated by using good quality components in the correction circuit ? Thinking about the F.A.S.T. presented by Lovechild - will a passive crossover degrade the FE206E performance much ? Again, is it a case of negating losses by using high quality crossover components ? The reason I'm asking is I've never heard FE206Es with correction/crossover in the signal path, I'm wondering about how much (if at all) it degrades the FE206E performance. Many thanks.
If you don't use baffle step correction in either a BR or an MLTL, it will sound thin and out of balance due to the 3-6db drop off below the baffle-step point. Personally, I'd call a huge drop-off in the SPLs more of a sonic degredation than any ~mythical problems caused by passive componenets. Buy decent components, obviously, but don't fall into the audiophile component trap of spending ~£50 on a single capacitor. Somebody's having a laugh with those things. Frankly, I've never heard any sonic degredation of any kind via a properly designed BSC circuit.
You can occasionally compenste without components by ramming the cabinets into corners or against a wall, but that then has it's own issues.
Yep, the MLTLs usually sound better than BR speakers. They often have a bit more extension, and definition in the LF is usually better.
You can occasionally compenste without components by ramming the cabinets into corners or against a wall, but that then has it's own issues.
Yep, the MLTLs usually sound better than BR speakers. They often have a bit more extension, and definition in the LF is usually better.
I have a 206E in the 208 horn cab. At the weekend I mocked up a BSC with a 1.0mh indcutor, 10ohm, 10 watt wirewound resistor and 2.24uf caps (2.2 +0.22) taken from humblehomemade hifi site.
I could see what the cicuit aims to achieve as I was getting more bass, but less treble and "air". It sounded very shut in and I did not like it. I suspect it was the quality of the components (especially the resistor) at fault.
I took it out fairly quickly, but am curious now if these things can work or is it best to leave the "crossover less" 206 well alone ?
I could see what the cicuit aims to achieve as I was getting more bass, but less treble and "air". It sounded very shut in and I did not like it. I suspect it was the quality of the components (especially the resistor) at fault.
I took it out fairly quickly, but am curious now if these things can work or is it best to leave the "crossover less" 206 well alone ?
That's nothing to do with the components. The factory 208 horn cabinet doesn't need BSC. Very few horns do. That's one of their major advantages.
Especially with the 206 mounted, the FR of this enclosure is boosted over the nominal driver sensitivity which at a stroke compensates for the drop-off caused by step response. With room-gain factored in, it becomes a non-issue.
As an aside, remember that a circuit is matched to a driver / cabinet combination. You can't take something designed for one speaker design and expect it to work in another. That circuilt was developed for a heavily modified version of the old Fostex BK201, which had a completely different frequency response below 1KHz. Those values for this enclosure make no sense at all. You've already effectively got a flat response, so all you're doing is arbitarily selecting an (irrelevant) frequency, and cutting everything above that by a massive amount. That's where the loss of 'air' you mention has gone.
Especially with the 206 mounted, the FR of this enclosure is boosted over the nominal driver sensitivity which at a stroke compensates for the drop-off caused by step response. With room-gain factored in, it becomes a non-issue.
As an aside, remember that a circuit is matched to a driver / cabinet combination. You can't take something designed for one speaker design and expect it to work in another. That circuilt was developed for a heavily modified version of the old Fostex BK201, which had a completely different frequency response below 1KHz. Those values for this enclosure make no sense at all. You've already effectively got a flat response, so all you're doing is arbitarily selecting an (irrelevant) frequency, and cutting everything above that by a massive amount. That's where the loss of 'air' you mention has gone.
Well I gave my speakers a try with some hard Rock.
Singular cabinet with no filter with Fostex FE207E is fairly balanced, high frequency somewhat truncated. It does need a super tweeter to help out with the highest highs. Still quite listenable without the tweeter though. (I will be adding a super tweeter to help above 12kHz)
Give them full tilt with a stout 50 watt amp and they really come to life. Lower volumes the high end is a little flat.
I bought S&M, Metallica with the San francisco symphony orchestra.
Gave it close to full volume on the first half of disk 2. Wherever I may roam (track 5) really went well with these.
snare drums sounded very, very real, but that after-ring was a little flat. Really big drums were heard well but you didn't feel it in your guts.
So I fired up my equalised big sub amp and alloy housing 10 inch sub (see subwoofer thread) The sub was flat out, I had to back it's amp off a little because the driver was starting to freak out a bit.
The sealed 10 incher did help a little bit, but was really a waste of time. If you do assist these with subwoofers you need something that runs from about 40Hz down. This is not a trivial sub for a 10 incher, it has a preamp filter that effectively adds 18dB of gain at 30hz to counteract the rolloff of such a little speaker, the amplifier is currently running at about 300 watts. and it really wasn't helping out all that much. I was thinking at the time "i need to build a much bigger one for these" So we're talking a pair of 12s or a single 15 inch to offer meaningful bass assistance to these speakers (if you want it). Don't bother with your basic department store one note boomer sub with these, it's a step backwards.
If your mate's high frequency hearing is very good then you could consider these but budget for some high end assistance. If he's over 40, in a band or works in aviation then these should be good enough for him (or her). Cost to build a pair in Australia: $500 for materials. Allow another $200-$500 for super tweeters. I haven't included paint, I have included fancy connectors and reasonable cable.
They arent for everyone, you have to sit in front of them and point them at your head. Not really a "party" speaker, they sound funny if you stand next to them. I was watching a live satellite Tv thing with Tony Bennet singing today, they are extremely good for his sort of voice.
The Thors with SEAS drivers look very good, I dont know what those cost.
Singular cabinet with no filter with Fostex FE207E is fairly balanced, high frequency somewhat truncated. It does need a super tweeter to help out with the highest highs. Still quite listenable without the tweeter though. (I will be adding a super tweeter to help above 12kHz)
Give them full tilt with a stout 50 watt amp and they really come to life. Lower volumes the high end is a little flat.
I bought S&M, Metallica with the San francisco symphony orchestra.
Gave it close to full volume on the first half of disk 2. Wherever I may roam (track 5) really went well with these.
snare drums sounded very, very real, but that after-ring was a little flat. Really big drums were heard well but you didn't feel it in your guts.
So I fired up my equalised big sub amp and alloy housing 10 inch sub (see subwoofer thread) The sub was flat out, I had to back it's amp off a little because the driver was starting to freak out a bit.
The sealed 10 incher did help a little bit, but was really a waste of time. If you do assist these with subwoofers you need something that runs from about 40Hz down. This is not a trivial sub for a 10 incher, it has a preamp filter that effectively adds 18dB of gain at 30hz to counteract the rolloff of such a little speaker, the amplifier is currently running at about 300 watts. and it really wasn't helping out all that much. I was thinking at the time "i need to build a much bigger one for these" So we're talking a pair of 12s or a single 15 inch to offer meaningful bass assistance to these speakers (if you want it). Don't bother with your basic department store one note boomer sub with these, it's a step backwards.
If your mate's high frequency hearing is very good then you could consider these but budget for some high end assistance. If he's over 40, in a band or works in aviation then these should be good enough for him (or her). Cost to build a pair in Australia: $500 for materials. Allow another $200-$500 for super tweeters. I haven't included paint, I have included fancy connectors and reasonable cable.
They arent for everyone, you have to sit in front of them and point them at your head. Not really a "party" speaker, they sound funny if you stand next to them. I was watching a live satellite Tv thing with Tony Bennet singing today, they are extremely good for his sort of voice.
The Thors with SEAS drivers look very good, I dont know what those cost.
Metallic's S&M is one of the most fearsome tests of a speaker's LF response that I know of. 'Nothing Else Matters' is a torture track a friend of mine uses & it's become one of mine as well. Subwoofers the world over tremble at the very mention of it. The only speakers I've heard to date that can pull it off effectively are big Tannoys. I haven't yet heard it through a VOTT, but I suspect they too, are one of the few setups that can do it justice. The best FR speaker I've heard on this to date was the 208ESigma in the factory cabinet + T90 supertweeters.
The Thors aren't to my taste, but for what they are, the drivers & XO are very well engineered. For the love of heaven though, don't build the original cabinet. Dave & I have done 3 variations -2 mass-loaded, one tapered, all of which comprehensively blow it away according to builders.
The Thors aren't to my taste, but for what they are, the drivers & XO are very well engineered. For the love of heaven though, don't build the original cabinet. Dave & I have done 3 variations -2 mass-loaded, one tapered, all of which comprehensively blow it away according to builders.
I'm glad I bought the CD Scottmoose.
My sub which I thought was pretty good just can't do it.
As a revhead mate said to me: There is no replacement for displacement.
I need a bigger sub. This one did me fine from 65Hz to 30Hz but I now need something that does 45-20.
My sub which I thought was pretty good just can't do it.
As a revhead mate said to me: There is no replacement for displacement.
I need a bigger sub. This one did me fine from 65Hz to 30Hz but I now need something that does 45-20.
Scottmoose. You are so knowledgable, thanks for that. I just try things I read about without knowing why !
I have nearly finished modifying a Rega cabinet into the 108 horn cabinet (basically a scaled down 208), using the 126E driver. I hope you're not going to tell me that it is a horrible mis-match !
I have nearly finished modifying a Rega cabinet into the 108 horn cabinet (basically a scaled down 208), using the 126E driver. I hope you're not going to tell me that it is a horrible mis-match !
Ok....I have a biiiig problem!
I hate everything, Metallica did after the "Master Of Puppets"
So....whatelse can I try...my reference for LF is the last track of the "Big Notes" record by "Flim the BBs"
I hate everything, Metallica did after the "Master Of Puppets"
So....whatelse can I try...my reference for LF is the last track of the "Big Notes" record by "Flim the BBs"
I know what you mean. I like S&M though, as it has something the later studio recordings lack.
108ESigma cabinet with 126s? Should do OK, I remember modelling this combination in an idle moment a while back. FWIW, I'd probably look at adding a suprabaffle to space the driver out a bit from the back-chamber & regain some volume in it.
Cheers
Scott
108ESigma cabinet with 126s? Should do OK, I remember modelling this combination in an idle moment a while back. FWIW, I'd probably look at adding a suprabaffle to space the driver out a bit from the back-chamber & regain some volume in it.
Cheers
Scott
Attachments
Scott. Thanks for that. I did in fact make the first chamber slightly bigger as it seemed incredibly small. I added 10mm to the depth.
I'll post some pics, hopeful by the weekend.
I'll post some pics, hopeful by the weekend.
OzMikeH, Thanks for all the Singular info. My mate is (well) over 40, has roadied for bands, and used to work in the aviation industry ..............oh dear ! The subwoofer will be too much for his house (which is small by UK standards). I'm making him FE207E/MLTLs but I'll keep your notes as I'm sure I'll make some Singulars in the not too distant future.
OzMikeH/Scottmoose, Thanks for the S&M / Metallica CD tip .... I'll get it. Have you ever heard "HyperBallad" by Bjork ? .... the lowest LF in my CD collection.
Scottmoose, Thanks for MLTL advice.
OzMikeH/Scottmoose, Thanks for the S&M / Metallica CD tip .... I'll get it. Have you ever heard "HyperBallad" by Bjork ? .... the lowest LF in my CD collection.
Scottmoose, Thanks for MLTL advice.
larkinrulez said:Ok....I have a biiiig problem!
I hate everything, Metallica did after the "Master Of Puppets"
So....whatelse can I try...my reference for LF is the last track of the "Big Notes" record by "Flim the BBs"
1812 overture.
Singular with 207 sounds good for him then. But do some more reading, there might be something better out there, I'm by no means an expert.
My friend with his singulars in a 2 room flat, neighbours above and below. floors are concrete though, and he has separated them from the floor.
My friend with his singulars in a 2 room flat, neighbours above and below. floors are concrete though, and he has separated them from the floor.
If he dosen't need so much bass...I would try a small ported enclosure.
I used to have a 18l that went down to 60Hz (-3 dB).
They look and sound good...would be my first choice for a small Flat.
I used to have a 18l that went down to 60Hz (-3 dB).
They look and sound good...would be my first choice for a small Flat.
An 18l BR that sounds worth a try. I believe that people are going as small as 10l with an FE206E. Anybody any experiences with that ?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.