I have built a shopping list for parts for my phono itch project. At the moment it has lots of nice parts from the HiFi Collective store. In that list there are 3300uF 10v Caps at £15.37 each (Elna Silmic II). A similar rated cap at RS Components is 36 pence. There are more examples but you get the idea. A lot of these are in the PSU. I want a good end product and am putting my time and effort in. Is it worth the extra cost? Is there a better way to ensure best results at optimum price by identifying key components and upgrading these to the more expensive audio quality items or should I just go the whole hog and keep all items audio grade? At the end of the day cost difference will probably be £2-300 which in the grand scheme of things is small compared to the hours I am taking to build this and the enjoyment I will get once finished but just how big a difference will this make? I know I could go cheap then upgrade and thereby listen to the difference but I have so many projects I would like to complete doubling the build time does not seem sensible. What's the views of the wise out there?
If the circuit is well designed and you don't buy counterfeit parts, you can do fine with relatively inexpensive components. Most of what you're buying with "audiophile grade" is psychological satisfaction- that's fine if that's what you want, but the sound waves hitting your ears won't know if you spent $20 or $0.50 on an electrolytic cap.
That's especially true in a PSU of an analog component with limited bandwidth.
That's especially true in a PSU of an analog component with limited bandwidth.
I don't make any claims to "wisdom", but I have been thinking about some of the same things lately while putting together a BOM for a project. It seems to me that only you can decide what grade of parts to use, as the principal reason for using expensive parts is because it makes you feel good about what you are building. Fifteen pounds for a 3300uF electrolytic cap seems ridiculously overpriced to me, but some people claim to like those Elna caps, and their specs aren't much worse than most good-quality electrolytics from Panasonic and Nichicon (except endurance, 1000hrs @85C is very poor). I'm pretty sure if I was building a phono stage I might consider some high-end parts in the signal path and closer to the front-end.
What are you building that only needs 10V filter caps in the PS?
What are you building that only needs 10V filter caps in the PS?
Oh, that reminds me... Manufacturers use the term "audio grade" to denote low-spec parts suitable for mere audio frequencies, as opposed to parts suitable to RF or lab-grade equipment. Resellers use the term "audio grade" to mean "expensive" and "magic".
Put as much money in the speakers, transformers, tubes, and chassis as you can. The difference between a $3 cap and a $40 cap are pretty insignificant.
The design and circuit layout is much more important than using "the best" components. Some basic upgrades are important as well. Go with a better Op-amp, rather than let's say an LM741. Those are 40 years old with only decent results.
Check out the slew rate, bandwidth, noise, and power requirements and make a good choice depending on what you need.
The design and circuit layout is much more important than using "the best" components. Some basic upgrades are important as well. Go with a better Op-amp, rather than let's say an LM741. Those are 40 years old with only decent results.
Check out the slew rate, bandwidth, noise, and power requirements and make a good choice depending on what you need.
Good thoughts. Re psychological satisfaction - once the covers are on it's a case of out of site out of mind so having big shiny good looking caps under the bonnet becomes irrelevant to what the ears experience I guess. I have another project currently working and looking great with huge audio note cans knocked up on a piece of MDF while I await the box to be made in Italy. It seems a shame to enclose it and hide them away. Maybe I will stick them on top....
The 10v caps are for heater circuitry, the PSU is separate box so there are caps which I think give a bit of a boost at the end of the connection cable.
Regarding putting money into the case apart from aesthetics is this in terms of shielding? I want to use some wood to stop things looking too dull and boxy on this project. It would be easy and quick to stuff everything into a ready made box but I fancy a well constructed oak and aluminium box, perhaps with a lining (copper or more aluminium) for shielding. Thanks all
The 10v caps are for heater circuitry, the PSU is separate box so there are caps which I think give a bit of a boost at the end of the connection cable.
Regarding putting money into the case apart from aesthetics is this in terms of shielding? I want to use some wood to stop things looking too dull and boxy on this project. It would be easy and quick to stuff everything into a ready made box but I fancy a well constructed oak and aluminium box, perhaps with a lining (copper or more aluminium) for shielding. Thanks all
It depends on design. If you fancy Audio Note ,the about only difference between basic model and 10 times $$ is parts quality. Same with any other hobby be it hunting, fishing or collecting panama hats.
PS. In sufficient system the differences in caps, wire etc are quite audible but they may not matter much on perceived quality.
Wood is a bad idea for enlosure. Boxes should be square , black , ugly and out of sight so you can be honest in judging the result based only on sound it produces. Once you make it too pretty and spend substantial time making it, it is almost impossible to get rid of it even if it sounds atrocious🙂
PS. In sufficient system the differences in caps, wire etc are quite audible but they may not matter much on perceived quality.
Wood is a bad idea for enlosure. Boxes should be square , black , ugly and out of sight so you can be honest in judging the result based only on sound it produces. Once you make it too pretty and spend substantial time making it, it is almost impossible to get rid of it even if it sounds atrocious🙂
I built two DAC's a year ago. All active devices were kept identical ( TI DAC's, sample rate converters and op-amps ) but one board was populated with the best passive components i could find, i even used film smd capacitors for power supply de-couplings while on the other board i used the cheapest components available. The end result ? My ears couldn't tell the difference, neither could others.
I wont say that at all components need to be of some special price. but each component type has to be selected on basis of what role is it playing. like if its to be low leakage caps,low ESR, low noise resistors, drifts allowed over the time and temperature.
yes, there are lot of debates that one type of cap sounds better over the other. you can google for this.
yes, there are lot of debates that one type of cap sounds better over the other. you can google for this.
I think you need to find a cheaper supplier!! Still expensive (compared to the 36 pence cap) but partsconnexion do the same Elna Silmic II's for $6.95 US each. That's about 4 pounds! Elna Electrolytic Capacitors RFS Series
Something a little more middle of the road would be a panasonic FM Panasonic | Passives | Capacitors | Aluminium | Radial 105°C |EEUFM1A332 sorry don't have the UK site handy 🙂 $2.34 AU... or around 1 pound 40 pence.
You can't necessarily compare the 36p cap to one like the panasonic FM, you would need to carefully look at the rated ripple current of the 36p cap, it may not be anywhere near as high as the FM (it may not need to be of course), and I would bet that the 36p cap has MUCH higher ESR. In the end up to a point, you do tend to get what you pay for 🙂
Tony.
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COTS
Most military, areospace, and medical design these days uses standard components, even from RS etc, the better grades and higher temp range (Industrial instead of commercial). Voltage ratings for caps tend to be derated by 50% and power dissipation of resistors the same.
Using good quality components will give you the reliability and sound without the excessive cost.
Most military, areospace, and medical design these days uses standard components, even from RS etc, the better grades and higher temp range (Industrial instead of commercial). Voltage ratings for caps tend to be derated by 50% and power dissipation of resistors the same.
Using good quality components will give you the reliability and sound without the excessive cost.
It depends where the parts go, there are more and less critical parts of a circuit. But you need some experience to understand what to put where. So hobbyists usually go for all cheap or all boutique parts.
You can also go lower to the panasonic FC, they should cost 50p, double than the generic you found on RS but a safe bet.
you certainly don't need "magic caps" for an IDH filament supply!
I've built gear both ways - with expensive and budget parts. These days I think the topology and design trump most passive parts selection. There are a few caveats to this - for a signal output capacitor I would use film over an electrolytic. It's best to experiment and see if it matters to you. I once built a tube linestage for a friend and most of the parts were sourced from Allied Electronics. Standard bog 18ga solid-core wire, Mallory PS caps and metal film resistors. The only 'special parts' were the 1uF Obligatto caps on the output. My friend loved it!
For some of my "trick" units, I have used really nice parts - Elna, Nichicon Muse, Blackgate, Teflons, etc - but I'll admit that I've never actively compared them to the same circuit with generic parts.
I've built gear both ways - with expensive and budget parts. These days I think the topology and design trump most passive parts selection. There are a few caveats to this - for a signal output capacitor I would use film over an electrolytic. It's best to experiment and see if it matters to you. I once built a tube linestage for a friend and most of the parts were sourced from Allied Electronics. Standard bog 18ga solid-core wire, Mallory PS caps and metal film resistors. The only 'special parts' were the 1uF Obligatto caps on the output. My friend loved it!
For some of my "trick" units, I have used really nice parts - Elna, Nichicon Muse, Blackgate, Teflons, etc - but I'll admit that I've never actively compared them to the same circuit with generic parts.
Someone mentioned ESR, equivalent series resistance; a lower number is worth paying a little extra to get in some circuits, but not others. Another measurement nobody mentioned is expected service life. Even in a respected industrial supplier like Nichicon, there is the cost cutter grade, and the 2000 hours life grade. I would expect the defined life grade to have better sealents to keep the water in. I have found them in motor drives that lasted over 10 years in ovens. I have found other grades of cap in motor drives that would last only 3 years in a packaging machine (not severe environment) due obviously to leakage of electrolyte, since there was always a puddle of it in the bottom of the stainless enclosure when we replaced them.
For my own work, if I can use a film cap instead of electrolytic, and make it fit, I will, because I don't want to replace it in 5 years. If I can't get a film in, I use a 2000 hours up electrolytic. And considering the 87% failure rate of tantalums I have received in purchased equipment, I won't use them at all.
For my own work, if I can use a film cap instead of electrolytic, and make it fit, I will, because I don't want to replace it in 5 years. If I can't get a film in, I use a 2000 hours up electrolytic. And considering the 87% failure rate of tantalums I have received in purchased equipment, I won't use them at all.
I built two identical ARC preamp clones. One with decent parts from Digikey. The only "audio parts" that were in it were the Solen bypass caps. In the second one I used PRP resistors and Dynamicaps. Same tubes. The sound had the same character from both. There was a definite improvement with the better parts. No earth shattering, but clearly there. Several others agreed with me on this. Given that the difference in cost was around $200, it was worth it to me. YMMV.
I upgraded Audio Note Quest 300B monos. I replaced Jensen copper PIO with new AN one, put Tantalum resistors in sensible positions, changed cheap electrolitycs for Black Gates (filament , driver bypass) elna's (300B bypass) and Panasonic for PSU (BG were too expensive and Elna Cerafine 500V not available anymore) It was expensive but results were clearly audible. Was it worth it ? It's a personal thing , it wasn't my money and some people buy AN gear just to upgrade it 🙂 Knowledge which part to use in what circuit and position comes with experience and practice and takes a lot of time . No easy answers. Kondo used fairly inexpensive nichicon caps and power resistors in his creations probably because their sound was just what he wanted or they were good enough. Lamm is using only industrial/military grade components and cheap Hammond magnetics (in PSU) and it makes mi dizzy to count zeros in the price of those units. Have you seen those only electrolytic caps in Audio Note crossovers in speakers costing $$$$ and most people just love them. It is what you believe in. If you believe in expensive parts use them if not don't -whatever makes you ( and more importantly your signifficant one: ) happy. You're not going to get any sensible answers . I can clearly hear differences in cables (I think also most of my friends and their GF's do). Do I buy expensive cables -no , I use lamp cord waiting for my system to mature to the state when it won't suck (last 10 years😉
Even with 8 ohm "PA" speakers, I can hear a difference in cables. 20' of 16 ga lamp cord, okay. 8' of 10 ga extra flexible (very fine wires) salvage SO cord, much better. SO4 cord is used for portable 460 VAC equipment in food plants where they wash down a lot , so they don't fool around when the insulation gets nicked- it goes in the dumpster. Really sounds good on hifi, but a ***** to get the spade lugs to fit under the banana jacks. No way 10 ga is going to fit modern 1/4 phone plugs. I had some phone plugs I bought in 1982 that were big enough, but everything has been cost reduced.
I will recommend only one electrolytic cap of which the difference is both "hear-able" and measurable, and that's the 220uF 35V Elna Silk caps, and they are available from DK. NP had recommended these some time back and I am grateful for the advice.
Flip side of the ESR coin. You say sometimes it's worth getting low ESR caps and I agree. If the circuit doesn't require the low ESR parts, is there a downside to using the low ESR part? Where I work I buy replacement caps and I always look for highest ripple current (often coincides with low ESR) and highest hours at highest temp. The bulk of my purchases are Panasonic FM, FC, FK, FP and Nichicon PW, HN, and HZ - that latter for PC motherboard replacements.
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