Physics aside, it is not by accident that Sheldon Stokes an acknowledged ESL guru chooses to use a TL sub with a pistonic low distortion Seas Excel magnesium driver. I think he too has found that this style of sub goes well with ESLs.
I'm not saying that the TL sub marries perfectly with my ESL, it doesn't. Just that after experimenting with BR, Sealed, Isobaric and open baffle bass I just prefer the TL signature over the other types of bass loading. There is something soft, textured and extended (down to 13Hz +/- 3dB) about TL bass that seems to meld nicely with electrostatic loudspeakers.
I have tried the Seas driver and prefer the Focal 8K5412, although not quite as strong as the Seas the Focal seems to have even less distortion and definitely has better extension. I am about to build a similar TL sub using the quite expensive 11" kevlar Focal 11K7511, so I'm hoping for even better results.
Regards,
Steve M.
I'm not saying that the TL sub marries perfectly with my ESL, it doesn't. Just that after experimenting with BR, Sealed, Isobaric and open baffle bass I just prefer the TL signature over the other types of bass loading. There is something soft, textured and extended (down to 13Hz +/- 3dB) about TL bass that seems to meld nicely with electrostatic loudspeakers.
I have tried the Seas driver and prefer the Focal 8K5412, although not quite as strong as the Seas the Focal seems to have even less distortion and definitely has better extension. I am about to build a similar TL sub using the quite expensive 11" kevlar Focal 11K7511, so I'm hoping for even better results.
Regards,
Steve M.
Distortion
Hi,
it´s quite logical, why dynamic drivers -the way they are normally built- distort.
First: unlinear motor
Second: unlinear suspension/mechanics
Third: energy storage
Fourth: losses
Fith: poor build-quality (e.g. Voice coil not centered)
Mass: Of course does mass play a roll in driver performance, but in a frequency range that is normally way above the useful range. Therefore in almost any case it can be ignored.
Calvin
Hi,
it´s quite logical, why dynamic drivers -the way they are normally built- distort.
First: unlinear motor
Second: unlinear suspension/mechanics
Third: energy storage
Fourth: losses
Fith: poor build-quality (e.g. Voice coil not centered)
Mass: Of course does mass play a roll in driver performance, but in a frequency range that is normally way above the useful range. Therefore in almost any case it can be ignored.
Calvin
Pan said:
I assume by CSD you mean waterfall plots? You should be able to find some published by Stereophile - there may be some on their website, quite a number of reviews are up there.
The Quad you saw the results on, the 57 or the 63?
I don't particularly like the 63, to my ears it always sounds like it is "down the hall" somewhere...
The waterfall plot on the 57 is very good.
It is true that some of the newest dynamic drivers are starting to get up to the distortion standards of ESLs.
Transformer coupled? You don't *need* to use a transformer, you can drive the panels directly if you want to build a special purpose amp.
Difficult load? Not necessary. Follow Strickland's patent. Much easier to drive and much better results without needing "EQ".
ESLs need to be large for high output. So?
Within the dynamic range of any two speakers there is no compression of dynamics, per se. What you hear inside the "linear range" is assorted distortions, polar response, frequency response and along the lines of distortions; resonances, Q, stored energy and "impulse" & "step response"...
Big ESLs are nice, especially in a decent size room. Small ESLs like the Quad 57 are nice in a small room.
Subs work fine with ESLs when their Q, freq response and xover are properly controlled and integrated. You can argue all day about that... have fun.
Hybrid ESL/cone speakers are problematic, hard to argue with that. Although if there was a cone driver that was so wonderful, you'd *think* it would integrate seamlessly? Ok, let's not argue about that either. I don't want a hybrid, thanks.
Martin Logan has no idea how to make an interface - <2ohms?? What? Ah well...
_-_-bear
PS. what's Accuton's spec - at what power level??
Hi Bear.
"I assume by CSD you mean waterfall plots?"
Yes. Goes faster to write CSD 🙂
"You should be able to find some published by Stereophile - there may be some on their website, quite a number of reviews are up there."
Possibly that´s where I saw the ML graph... dunno for sure.
"The Quad you saw the results on, the 57 or the 63?"
Think it was THD for ESL63.
"It is true that some of the newest dynamic drivers are starting to get up to the distortion standards of ESLs."
Yes, that is nice. However often very costly though. The Excel range being an exception, pretty good bang for the buck IMO.
"Transformer coupled? You don't *need* to use a transformer, you can drive the panels directly if you want to build a special purpose amp."
That´s seems like a nice concept, I´m aware of it. Seldom used though.. at least in commercial products.
"Within the dynamic range of any two speakers there is no compression of dynamics, per se. What you hear inside the "linear range" is assorted distortions, polar response, frequency response and along the lines of distortions; resonances, Q, stored energy and "impulse" & "step response"..."
Even though it´s small, we will always have thermal compression/distortion and compression/distortion from spider and suspension. Whenever a soft flexing cone is used in a dynamic driver, that will add compression and distortion by the very nature of how it´s made. Sure these artifacts are not gross normally, but still makes the characteristic sound of a specific driver.
"Big ESLs are nice, especially in a decent size room. Small ESLs like the Quad 57 are nice in a small room."
Agree, dipoles do well in small rooms.
"Subs work fine with ESLs when their Q, freq response and xover are properly controlled and integrated. You can argue all day about that... have fun."
Of course, I agree.
"Hybrid ESL/cone speakers are problematic, hard to argue with that. Although if there was a cone driver that was so wonderful, you'd *think* it would integrate seamlessly? Ok, let's not argue about that either. I don't want a hybrid, thanks."
I do "believe" so yes. If the driver is a good one.. IOW stiff cone and low distortion motor used in dipole fashion with proper integration vis avi the x-ing. Hell, GD and phase distortion is a thing in the past now when DSP has entered the market. Not very cheap yet though but it will be.
"PS. what's Accuton's spec - at what power level??"
http://www.accuton.com/e_index_iexplorer1152.html
Cheers!
/Peter
"I assume by CSD you mean waterfall plots?"
Yes. Goes faster to write CSD 🙂
"You should be able to find some published by Stereophile - there may be some on their website, quite a number of reviews are up there."
Possibly that´s where I saw the ML graph... dunno for sure.
"The Quad you saw the results on, the 57 or the 63?"
Think it was THD for ESL63.
"It is true that some of the newest dynamic drivers are starting to get up to the distortion standards of ESLs."
Yes, that is nice. However often very costly though. The Excel range being an exception, pretty good bang for the buck IMO.
"Transformer coupled? You don't *need* to use a transformer, you can drive the panels directly if you want to build a special purpose amp."
That´s seems like a nice concept, I´m aware of it. Seldom used though.. at least in commercial products.
"Within the dynamic range of any two speakers there is no compression of dynamics, per se. What you hear inside the "linear range" is assorted distortions, polar response, frequency response and along the lines of distortions; resonances, Q, stored energy and "impulse" & "step response"..."
Even though it´s small, we will always have thermal compression/distortion and compression/distortion from spider and suspension. Whenever a soft flexing cone is used in a dynamic driver, that will add compression and distortion by the very nature of how it´s made. Sure these artifacts are not gross normally, but still makes the characteristic sound of a specific driver.
"Big ESLs are nice, especially in a decent size room. Small ESLs like the Quad 57 are nice in a small room."
Agree, dipoles do well in small rooms.
"Subs work fine with ESLs when their Q, freq response and xover are properly controlled and integrated. You can argue all day about that... have fun."
Of course, I agree.
"Hybrid ESL/cone speakers are problematic, hard to argue with that. Although if there was a cone driver that was so wonderful, you'd *think* it would integrate seamlessly? Ok, let's not argue about that either. I don't want a hybrid, thanks."
I do "believe" so yes. If the driver is a good one.. IOW stiff cone and low distortion motor used in dipole fashion with proper integration vis avi the x-ing. Hell, GD and phase distortion is a thing in the past now when DSP has entered the market. Not very cheap yet though but it will be.
"PS. what's Accuton's spec - at what power level??"
http://www.accuton.com/e_index_iexplorer1152.html
Cheers!
/Peter
Hi, I've a pair of 8K5412 Focal woofer and am planning in building a hybrid ESL and TL sub. Do you mind sharing dimension of your TL?
Thanks.
Thanks.
harlee - you have responded to a thread that is now last posted to 7 years ago... suggest you might want to start a new thread based on your woofer and the TL application you wish to get info on?? 😀
_-_-bear
PS. I only noticed it because I search on my login to see who has said what in threads where I am active... 😀
_-_-bear
PS. I only noticed it because I search on my login to see who has said what in threads where I am active... 😀
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