There's a rumor/case that ESLs compress the dynamics of the recordings due to limited excursion?
An ESL with a transient subwoofer that maches in really excellent, in which of the following cases can struggle?
Dynamics, Microdynamics, Macrodynamics... (What all these mean?)
I know that the ESLs are excellent in microdynamics
but I think that a speaker has good macrodynamics when it has fast and forceful bass (and not in the case of loudness)
If that's wrong then we have dynamics in the high frequencies? (I don't think so!)
So where's the problem with electrostatics technology?
Please shed some light down here...
Thanks
Michael
An ESL with a transient subwoofer that maches in really excellent, in which of the following cases can struggle?
Dynamics, Microdynamics, Macrodynamics... (What all these mean?)
I know that the ESLs are excellent in microdynamics
but I think that a speaker has good macrodynamics when it has fast and forceful bass (and not in the case of loudness)
If that's wrong then we have dynamics in the high frequencies? (I don't think so!)
So where's the problem with electrostatics technology?
Please shed some light down here...
Thanks
Michael
At the time when i used to build ESL panels i used to wonder as well. In many cases the mechanical design is responsible for the squashed dynamics but more often than not it is the amp. Unless you use some smart impedance equalising network the ESL panel/transformer presents most amps with a formidable load. I noticed that every time i double the number of output devices the dynamics will improve. At the end i started tri-amping using not only separate amps for each frequency band but also separate step-up transformers. Big improvement.
ESLs have to make up for limited Xmax (excursion) by using large surface area.
It takes voltage swing to make the diaphragm move - that is supplied by an amplifier. Since the load is capacitive the amp needs to be stable into the load AND have sufficient voltage swing to reach the requisite output level.
Compared to standard dynamic speakers an ESL must be many times the front surface area to have an equal output and bandwidth. And even with that, a lower *apparent* efficiency - meaning that you need a "more powerful" amp (higher rails = higher output voltage swing) to achieve those levels.
Having said that most home size ESLs simply will not reach the same max SPL that *some* relatively small dynamic speakers can. On the other hand, at "normal" listening levels you've got a wide range speaker that has superior transient response, and that has the comensurate benefits that listening to such a speaker confers.
Macro/micro dynamics? Relatively meaningless terms except to describe a subjective experience. Imho.
Keep this in mind, lower distortion speakers sound *less loud* at the same actual SPL levels as do higher distortion speakers. Subjectively we interpret a certain amount of distortion as loudness, especially when it is slightly "loud".
Just my opinions here.
_-_-bear
It takes voltage swing to make the diaphragm move - that is supplied by an amplifier. Since the load is capacitive the amp needs to be stable into the load AND have sufficient voltage swing to reach the requisite output level.
Compared to standard dynamic speakers an ESL must be many times the front surface area to have an equal output and bandwidth. And even with that, a lower *apparent* efficiency - meaning that you need a "more powerful" amp (higher rails = higher output voltage swing) to achieve those levels.
Having said that most home size ESLs simply will not reach the same max SPL that *some* relatively small dynamic speakers can. On the other hand, at "normal" listening levels you've got a wide range speaker that has superior transient response, and that has the comensurate benefits that listening to such a speaker confers.
Macro/micro dynamics? Relatively meaningless terms except to describe a subjective experience. Imho.
Keep this in mind, lower distortion speakers sound *less loud* at the same actual SPL levels as do higher distortion speakers. Subjectively we interpret a certain amount of distortion as loudness, especially when it is slightly "loud".
Just my opinions here.
_-_-bear
Yeah I agree with you bear, meaningless words...
But I think since Esls have Xmax that is enough for the midrange and treble they don't compress the dynamics of a recording at these regions...
On the other hand where the Xmax isn't enough is the bass region under 200Hz... So sub that matches the fast membranes can fix the problem of bass dynamics compression and last octaves lost....>
Is this true?
If it is true then why everybody says that a hybrid ESL/dynamic can't have the dynamics of B&W Nautilus for example?
But I think since Esls have Xmax that is enough for the midrange and treble they don't compress the dynamics of a recording at these regions...
On the other hand where the Xmax isn't enough is the bass region under 200Hz... So sub that matches the fast membranes can fix the problem of bass dynamics compression and last octaves lost....>
Is this true?
If it is true then why everybody says that a hybrid ESL/dynamic can't have the dynamics of B&W Nautilus for example?
Sorry but I didn't get a specific answer
What makes a ESL Dynamic capable?
I know it has to do about size and Xmax!
Can we talk about dynamics in highs or in the upper midrange/midrange >200Hz?
If we can't, then why an ESL isn't as good as a convetional lou-speaker in dynamics if it has a sub with really deep fast bass and high Xmax with x-over 200Hz?
Thanks
Mike
What makes a ESL Dynamic capable?
I know it has to do about size and Xmax!
Can we talk about dynamics in highs or in the upper midrange/midrange >200Hz?
If we can't, then why an ESL isn't as good as a convetional lou-speaker in dynamics if it has a sub with really deep fast bass and high Xmax with x-over 200Hz?
Thanks
Mike
ESL and Dynamics
In a nut shell the combination of the ESL's surface area and the amount of output voltage "swing" that the amplifier is able to produce. THe next factor is the combination of the diaphragm to stator spacing. There is a balance needed between the space between the stator and the diaphragm and the polarizing voltage. A small space will make for a slightly more efficient loudspeaker. A smaller space will also limit the amount of excursion that is allowable. This will limit the bass. A small space will reduce the maximum polarizing voltage and therefore reduce the efficiency.
So the short answer is a HUGE panel with a HUGe amp that can drive very low impedances under highly capacitive conditions.
Two tall orders please!
Mark
In a nut shell the combination of the ESL's surface area and the amount of output voltage "swing" that the amplifier is able to produce. THe next factor is the combination of the diaphragm to stator spacing. There is a balance needed between the space between the stator and the diaphragm and the polarizing voltage. A small space will make for a slightly more efficient loudspeaker. A smaller space will also limit the amount of excursion that is allowable. This will limit the bass. A small space will reduce the maximum polarizing voltage and therefore reduce the efficiency.
So the short answer is a HUGE panel with a HUGe amp that can drive very low impedances under highly capacitive conditions.
Two tall orders please!
Mark
Shouting a question just because you didn't get the answer you wanted isn't polite.
You seem to be wanting quick-and-easy answers to non-trivial questions.
There's no way to get deep bass out of an ESL without making them the size of a barn door. As for the dynamics, there are a number of factors involved, including the mass of the diaphragm (including conductive coating), the restriction on air flow due to the physical structure of the speakers (perforated metal stators, for instance, greatly increase the loading on the driver compared to, say, the old Acoustat wire design), the amp driving the speaker, and so on.
Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL. That leads to an audible change in sound quality once the speaker crosses over to the woofer. If it were an easy thing to accomplish, all the ESL manufacturers wouldn't have to keep claiming to have "finally" solved the problem. They haven't.
A better match would be a planar magnetic woofer, but I'm not aware of any commercial designs that have tried it.
In the meantime, go buy a pair of the big Sound Labs ESLs. They do a pretty good job on all fronts.
Grey
EDIT: Besides, who says ESLs aren't dynamic?
You seem to be wanting quick-and-easy answers to non-trivial questions.
There's no way to get deep bass out of an ESL without making them the size of a barn door. As for the dynamics, there are a number of factors involved, including the mass of the diaphragm (including conductive coating), the restriction on air flow due to the physical structure of the speakers (perforated metal stators, for instance, greatly increase the loading on the driver compared to, say, the old Acoustat wire design), the amp driving the speaker, and so on.
Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL. That leads to an audible change in sound quality once the speaker crosses over to the woofer. If it were an easy thing to accomplish, all the ESL manufacturers wouldn't have to keep claiming to have "finally" solved the problem. They haven't.
A better match would be a planar magnetic woofer, but I'm not aware of any commercial designs that have tried it.
In the meantime, go buy a pair of the big Sound Labs ESLs. They do a pretty good job on all fronts.
Grey
EDIT: Besides, who says ESLs aren't dynamic?
Grey,
"Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL."
Aahh! Common. Fast bass? 😉
Ok, seriously it´s about room loading and power response. The ESL63 with Gradient subs works fine in most poeples opinion, and I liked it as hell. I think that was the first time I heard dipole bass, some ten years ago.
Short answer: use dipole dynamic subs to E-stats.
/Peter
"Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL."
Aahh! Common. Fast bass? 😉
Ok, seriously it´s about room loading and power response. The ESL63 with Gradient subs works fine in most poeples opinion, and I liked it as hell. I think that was the first time I heard dipole bass, some ten years ago.
Short answer: use dipole dynamic subs to E-stats.
/Peter
Room loading and power response have nothing to do with transient response. If it makes you happy, go with it--it's your money. I've never heard anything that will mate seamlessly with an ESL, although I'd be willing to give a planar a try. I don't currently have access to a good ESL for experiments along those lines and I can't afford the time to build a set.
Setting aside questions about the speed of the drivers, the very fact that you're inserting a crossover into what was previously a single-driver system will begin degrading the sound quality. One of the most important advantages to ESLs is the very fact that they sound continuous from top to bottom. It's not a property to be thrown away lightly.
ESLs have a number of problems, of course. The flat panels beam, the segmented ones have lobing effects, the curved ones are prone to resonances, they have to be really, really big in order to generate decent bass, and they present odd loads to amplifiers. Then there's that pesky transformer in the signal path--normally something that only tube folks and (some) ribbon owners have to put up with. It's enough to drive you crazy. If it weren't for the fact that ESLs do some things astoundingly well the whole idea would have been scrapped long ago.
Grey
Setting aside questions about the speed of the drivers, the very fact that you're inserting a crossover into what was previously a single-driver system will begin degrading the sound quality. One of the most important advantages to ESLs is the very fact that they sound continuous from top to bottom. It's not a property to be thrown away lightly.
ESLs have a number of problems, of course. The flat panels beam, the segmented ones have lobing effects, the curved ones are prone to resonances, they have to be really, really big in order to generate decent bass, and they present odd loads to amplifiers. Then there's that pesky transformer in the signal path--normally something that only tube folks and (some) ribbon owners have to put up with. It's enough to drive you crazy. If it weren't for the fact that ESLs do some things astoundingly well the whole idea would have been scrapped long ago.
Grey
Thanks guys for the realy intresting questions and by the way sorry for the possible impoliteness in my previous post...
Grey,
"Room loading and power response have nothing to do with transient response."
It has everything to do with how "fast" you experience the bass. Again it´s NOT the problem with the bass driver.. iow a bass driver is FAST enough to mate with any driver as long as they sum correct. This is pure physics. The extremly slow decay of sub 200Hz fr. in room makes the audibility of GD in low range questionable. You want "fast" bass... dipoles or DSP is what you need. Oh, you can load your room with bass absorbers also which help some.
The problem you bring up with x-over and the delay is nothing you should blame the bass driver for.
Now, have you listened to dynamic dipole bass, and especially with ESL?
"If it makes you happy, go with it--it's your money. I've never heard anything that will mate seamlessly with an ESL,"
I don´t use ESLs, but would you mind telling me what you have heard with ESLs?
Adding a boxed "sub" speaker with a dipole is a disaster for power reponse and room mode excitation, you realise the physics behind that don´t you?
/Peter
"Room loading and power response have nothing to do with transient response."
It has everything to do with how "fast" you experience the bass. Again it´s NOT the problem with the bass driver.. iow a bass driver is FAST enough to mate with any driver as long as they sum correct. This is pure physics. The extremly slow decay of sub 200Hz fr. in room makes the audibility of GD in low range questionable. You want "fast" bass... dipoles or DSP is what you need. Oh, you can load your room with bass absorbers also which help some.
The problem you bring up with x-over and the delay is nothing you should blame the bass driver for.
Now, have you listened to dynamic dipole bass, and especially with ESL?
"If it makes you happy, go with it--it's your money. I've never heard anything that will mate seamlessly with an ESL,"
I don´t use ESLs, but would you mind telling me what you have heard with ESLs?
Adding a boxed "sub" speaker with a dipole is a disaster for power reponse and room mode excitation, you realise the physics behind that don´t you?
/Peter
I have found that the thing that overcomes the dynamic differences between the inherent speed of an ESL and any attempts to marry it to a cone woofer system is active amplification.
By actively driving the cone woofer, you have tons of power on hand and this results in effective and dynamic bass.
I prefer to use a Sheldon Stokes style Transmission Line subwoofer with a high quality 8" pistonic driver like a Focal 8K5412 driven by a 150w plate amp. I have been successfully using this type of TL subwoofer with my Quad and Mackinlay ESL-3 (see www.eraudio.com.au ) for about 18 months prior to Sheldon first publishing his liking for this style of sub. A good TL sub 'breathes' and couples to the air in the room (unlike conventional BR or Sealed subs), and therefore blends nicely with the ESL's delicate soundfield.
Regards,
Steve M.
By actively driving the cone woofer, you have tons of power on hand and this results in effective and dynamic bass.
I prefer to use a Sheldon Stokes style Transmission Line subwoofer with a high quality 8" pistonic driver like a Focal 8K5412 driven by a 150w plate amp. I have been successfully using this type of TL subwoofer with my Quad and Mackinlay ESL-3 (see www.eraudio.com.au ) for about 18 months prior to Sheldon first publishing his liking for this style of sub. A good TL sub 'breathes' and couples to the air in the room (unlike conventional BR or Sealed subs), and therefore blends nicely with the ESL's delicate soundfield.
Regards,
Steve M.
Hmmm, you keep mentioning physics but disregard the basic element of mass...a fairly straightforward physics issue. Dynamic drivers are seriously heavy by comparison with the near-zero mass of a membrane of mylar. There's no way around that with current technology.
Listening to a good full range ESL like the largest Sound Labs (even those old monster Acoustats were pretty good in that regard) will toss any preconceived notions about 'fast' dynamic bass out the window. There's no dynamic driver made that can match that sort of performance. Nor is there an enclosure design that negates the fundamental property of mass.
I guess you and I have different standards as to what constitutes fast bass.
One thing I intend to do--probably about the year 2090 or so--is to build a dedicated ESL subwoofer about four to six feet wide and as tall as I can fit in the room. Kinda turn the concept on its head. It'd be fun to have a sub that was faster than the mains. 'Course all you have to do at that point is go to ESL mains. Still got transformers and all that other nonsense to deal with, but the low frequencies involved would render the whole hotspot/beaming question moot. I've got some preliminary scratchings related to the project somewhere. Every so often I run across them and add a scribbled note or two. Then they get submerged again...
Grey
Listening to a good full range ESL like the largest Sound Labs (even those old monster Acoustats were pretty good in that regard) will toss any preconceived notions about 'fast' dynamic bass out the window. There's no dynamic driver made that can match that sort of performance. Nor is there an enclosure design that negates the fundamental property of mass.
I guess you and I have different standards as to what constitutes fast bass.
One thing I intend to do--probably about the year 2090 or so--is to build a dedicated ESL subwoofer about four to six feet wide and as tall as I can fit in the room. Kinda turn the concept on its head. It'd be fun to have a sub that was faster than the mains. 'Course all you have to do at that point is go to ESL mains. Still got transformers and all that other nonsense to deal with, but the low frequencies involved would render the whole hotspot/beaming question moot. I've got some preliminary scratchings related to the project somewhere. Every so often I run across them and add a scribbled note or two. Then they get submerged again...
Grey
Now how was it, did you listen to dipole dynamic bass or not? 🙂
Thing is that in room, any "fastness" of a bass driver/system is going to be seriously degraded by room modes and the extremly slow decay of those modes. Speaker/room integration is what dominates performance in the bass.
"Dynamic drivers are seriously heavy by comparison with the near-zero mass of a membrane of mylar. There's no way around that with current technology."
But what does that have to do with speed or performance?
/Peter
Thing is that in room, any "fastness" of a bass driver/system is going to be seriously degraded by room modes and the extremly slow decay of those modes. Speaker/room integration is what dominates performance in the bass.
"Dynamic drivers are seriously heavy by comparison with the near-zero mass of a membrane of mylar. There's no way around that with current technology."
But what does that have to do with speed or performance?
/Peter
Go drive a large truck and a small sports car and report back on the differences. I think you'll find that smaller mass corresponds to faster starts and stops.
Room modes are unquestionably an important component of sound, but they take time to build. By the time a room resonance gets started, the initial transient that started it is over.
Let's approach it as a question of direct vs. reflected sound. Take a direct path from the woofer (regardless of type) to the listener's ear. That's your perception of impact, dynamics, or whatever you wish to call it. Now the wave front travels on past, hits the rear wall and starts back down the room. Note that it's still not a resonance yet, any more than any other frequency is, as it hasn't even completed one transit of the room, and a resonance, by definition, reaches the complete length of the room and persists. The reflection passes the listener again, diminished in magnitude, and also lagging by sufficient time (unless you sit very close to the back wall--hardly recommended) that it's not confused with the initial wavefront.
Taking it as an envelope, the initial rise time is very quick. The long sloping decay is not by any stretch of the imagination related to the quickness of the driver. It would be closer to the mark to say that it's tied to the low level resolution of the driver. Yes, the room will influence this greatly, but I'm just talking about the woofer. Room resonances can obscure this lower level detail, but you're going to have a hard time selling anyone on the idea that the speed of a driver is found on the decay side of the impulse, rather than the attack. Should you try to make that argument, you'll find people pointing out that low level resolution is also related to low mass.
Yes, I've heard dipole woofers. The idea is actually very old. My favorite (as much for sentimental reasons as anything else) was the one with four 12" drivers made up to look like a Dahlquist DQ-10. From the front, the thing was a near perfect match. From the back, you could see the four magnets straining against the cloth, so the illusion was lost--but who looks at the back of the speakers while listening, anyway. Can't remember the name of the company, but it came with a dedicated Hafler DH-200 with the necessary frequency EQ built in. Nifty niche product. Good match for the DQ-10, but then, the DQ-10s weren't electrostats.
Grey
Room modes are unquestionably an important component of sound, but they take time to build. By the time a room resonance gets started, the initial transient that started it is over.
Let's approach it as a question of direct vs. reflected sound. Take a direct path from the woofer (regardless of type) to the listener's ear. That's your perception of impact, dynamics, or whatever you wish to call it. Now the wave front travels on past, hits the rear wall and starts back down the room. Note that it's still not a resonance yet, any more than any other frequency is, as it hasn't even completed one transit of the room, and a resonance, by definition, reaches the complete length of the room and persists. The reflection passes the listener again, diminished in magnitude, and also lagging by sufficient time (unless you sit very close to the back wall--hardly recommended) that it's not confused with the initial wavefront.
Taking it as an envelope, the initial rise time is very quick. The long sloping decay is not by any stretch of the imagination related to the quickness of the driver. It would be closer to the mark to say that it's tied to the low level resolution of the driver. Yes, the room will influence this greatly, but I'm just talking about the woofer. Room resonances can obscure this lower level detail, but you're going to have a hard time selling anyone on the idea that the speed of a driver is found on the decay side of the impulse, rather than the attack. Should you try to make that argument, you'll find people pointing out that low level resolution is also related to low mass.
Yes, I've heard dipole woofers. The idea is actually very old. My favorite (as much for sentimental reasons as anything else) was the one with four 12" drivers made up to look like a Dahlquist DQ-10. From the front, the thing was a near perfect match. From the back, you could see the four magnets straining against the cloth, so the illusion was lost--but who looks at the back of the speakers while listening, anyway. Can't remember the name of the company, but it came with a dedicated Hafler DH-200 with the necessary frequency EQ built in. Nifty niche product. Good match for the DQ-10, but then, the DQ-10s weren't electrostats.
Grey
"Go drive a large truck and a small sports car and report back on the differences. I think you'll find that smaller mass corresponds to faster starts and stops."
Speed or acceleration..? A small weight will accelerate faster than a heavy weight when the same force is applied. Speed in a woofer is all about sensitivity and BW.
What you fail to realize is that fast starts and stops means a tweeter.. a woofer does not have to be "fast" the way you put it. I think you have that old misconception that is pretty common. Give the large truck a bigger motor and more effective breaks and it will be fast as well. What you to talk about is acceleration. Speed and acceleration is a product of force vs. mass and bandwith. Bass is not fast... bass is slow by the very nature of cycles per second. If the bass would be faster it would be midrange.... or higher spl.
If you somehow would make the driver "slower" that would mean lower amplitude/spl or lower bandwith.... not "slow bass". A high Q resonance in band will make the driver slow at that part of the spectrum and that goes for ESLs as well.
A heavy dynamic driver with low Q, and high bandwith (low inductance mostly) will have all speed you need. The rest is about room integration.
"Taking it as an envelope, the initial rise time is very quick."
I think you mix up high frequency transients with low frequency transients. If the initial rise time is "very quick" than that just indicates a high bandwith signal... the "fastness" that you talk about is provided by the high frequencys.
"The long sloping decay is not by any stretch of the imagination related to the quickness of the driver. It would be closer to the mark to say that it's tied to the low level resolution of the driver."
Yes it is. Again, not to the high freqency part of the sound, but to the SLOW bass.... bass is slow, not fast. If the speaker has flat frequency response and are transient perfect, then you´ll have all fastness you need. BTW, electrostats has a high Q resonance in the low range... that means they are SLOW due to that fact.
"you're going to have a hard time selling anyone on the idea that the speed of a driver is found on the decay side of the impulse, rather than the attack."
That "speed" you talk about is the high frequency content of the signal, it´s not bass. Think about it.
"Should you try to make that argument, you'll find people pointing out that low level resolution is also related to low mass."
No, why?
/Peter
Speed or acceleration..? A small weight will accelerate faster than a heavy weight when the same force is applied. Speed in a woofer is all about sensitivity and BW.
What you fail to realize is that fast starts and stops means a tweeter.. a woofer does not have to be "fast" the way you put it. I think you have that old misconception that is pretty common. Give the large truck a bigger motor and more effective breaks and it will be fast as well. What you to talk about is acceleration. Speed and acceleration is a product of force vs. mass and bandwith. Bass is not fast... bass is slow by the very nature of cycles per second. If the bass would be faster it would be midrange.... or higher spl.
If you somehow would make the driver "slower" that would mean lower amplitude/spl or lower bandwith.... not "slow bass". A high Q resonance in band will make the driver slow at that part of the spectrum and that goes for ESLs as well.
A heavy dynamic driver with low Q, and high bandwith (low inductance mostly) will have all speed you need. The rest is about room integration.
"Taking it as an envelope, the initial rise time is very quick."
I think you mix up high frequency transients with low frequency transients. If the initial rise time is "very quick" than that just indicates a high bandwith signal... the "fastness" that you talk about is provided by the high frequencys.
"The long sloping decay is not by any stretch of the imagination related to the quickness of the driver. It would be closer to the mark to say that it's tied to the low level resolution of the driver."
Yes it is. Again, not to the high freqency part of the sound, but to the SLOW bass.... bass is slow, not fast. If the speaker has flat frequency response and are transient perfect, then you´ll have all fastness you need. BTW, electrostats has a high Q resonance in the low range... that means they are SLOW due to that fact.
"you're going to have a hard time selling anyone on the idea that the speed of a driver is found on the decay side of the impulse, rather than the attack."
That "speed" you talk about is the high frequency content of the signal, it´s not bass. Think about it.
"Should you try to make that argument, you'll find people pointing out that low level resolution is also related to low mass."
No, why?
/Peter
Dynamics
Hi Folks,
I´ve rad a lot of rubbish in this thread -sorry to expess it that harsh-.
If we talk about the frequency range above app. 150-200Hz an ESL is capable of exceptional high dynamics if it is constructed the right way. You´ll need relatively small stator-diaphragm spacing and big size. A ESL with smaller spacing will always have a much (not just slight) higher efficiency. Even though You need less polarizing and signal voltage. As an example reducing the spacing of a 2400cm² Panel from 2.3mm to 1.5mm gave an efficiency plus around 10dB! You simply can´t make this up with the 0.7mm more of spacing because Youre running out of the safe operating area of Your amp or trannie.
As soon as You going above 2mm spacing You´ll probably get problems with the high values of the needed voltages. As far as I know there is no amp on the market, that can deliver more than 2kVrms and even with audio trannies you´re quite close to getting problems.
Furthermore a ESL always sounds superior when he doesn´t have to ´move´.
So You have to have a woofer. The problems the hybrids have are due to following reasons. First is problems with the crossover and the second is due to the radiation characteristics and the third is due to group delays. You have a transition from a global wave in the bass to a dipolar cylindrical wave in the mid-highs. As soon as You use e.g. a dipolar bass or even better a dipolar bass tower the transition problem has vanished. A dipolar bass also features smallest group delays. Using such a system You have enough dynamic headroom even for very big rooms.
Anybody who thinks that the mass of a woofer has anything to do with ´slow´ bass let them be told: "Go learn the basics of acoustic!"
Calvin
Hi Folks,
I´ve rad a lot of rubbish in this thread -sorry to expess it that harsh-.
If we talk about the frequency range above app. 150-200Hz an ESL is capable of exceptional high dynamics if it is constructed the right way. You´ll need relatively small stator-diaphragm spacing and big size. A ESL with smaller spacing will always have a much (not just slight) higher efficiency. Even though You need less polarizing and signal voltage. As an example reducing the spacing of a 2400cm² Panel from 2.3mm to 1.5mm gave an efficiency plus around 10dB! You simply can´t make this up with the 0.7mm more of spacing because Youre running out of the safe operating area of Your amp or trannie.
As soon as You going above 2mm spacing You´ll probably get problems with the high values of the needed voltages. As far as I know there is no amp on the market, that can deliver more than 2kVrms and even with audio trannies you´re quite close to getting problems.
Furthermore a ESL always sounds superior when he doesn´t have to ´move´.
So You have to have a woofer. The problems the hybrids have are due to following reasons. First is problems with the crossover and the second is due to the radiation characteristics and the third is due to group delays. You have a transition from a global wave in the bass to a dipolar cylindrical wave in the mid-highs. As soon as You use e.g. a dipolar bass or even better a dipolar bass tower the transition problem has vanished. A dipolar bass also features smallest group delays. Using such a system You have enough dynamic headroom even for very big rooms.
Anybody who thinks that the mass of a woofer has anything to do with ´slow´ bass let them be told: "Go learn the basics of acoustic!"
Calvin
Anyone who chooses to ignore mass should start with physics before moving on to acoustics, but that's okay. Clearly this thread is turning into another semantic argument. Ugh. Feel free to knock yourselves out, but I'm leaving whilst the getting is good. Life is far to short to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Just ask yourself this one question...if dynamic drivers are so good, why is their distortion always five to ten times that of an ESL?
Grey
Just ask yourself this one question...if dynamic drivers are so good, why is their distortion always five to ten times that of an ESL?
Grey
Sorry Grey but what you have said earlier indicates that you do not get the picture. I did read physics in school and now I´m into acoustics. 🙂
Noone ignors mass but there´s more to it than that as I have tried to explain.
"Just ask yourself this one question...if dynamic drivers are so good, why is their distortion always five to ten times that of an ESL?"
What ESL do you have in mind? Check out Seas W22 and Accuton D20/D30 and the ribbons that have the lowest distortion.
Besides, this has little to do with transient response. Good transient response means wide bandwith and well damped/low Q and of course low GD, all which can be had with dynamic minimum phase systems.
If you think sudden transient sounds does not excite room modes (which you said earlier) you need to think again... it does. You really need to read up on acoustics and electro acoustics Grey, no offense but you miss some important things.
Try this;
Stand in a corner in a room and thump your chest with your fist, you will get a very good indication of the rooms low frequency behaviour, and you will understand that whay you said earlier is incorrect.
Also you may want to go to Adire and read some on "speed" and bass drivers to get a better grip on how mass and inductance affect a driver in the pass band.
Cheers! 🙂
/Peter
Noone ignors mass but there´s more to it than that as I have tried to explain.
"Just ask yourself this one question...if dynamic drivers are so good, why is their distortion always five to ten times that of an ESL?"
What ESL do you have in mind? Check out Seas W22 and Accuton D20/D30 and the ribbons that have the lowest distortion.
Besides, this has little to do with transient response. Good transient response means wide bandwith and well damped/low Q and of course low GD, all which can be had with dynamic minimum phase systems.
If you think sudden transient sounds does not excite room modes (which you said earlier) you need to think again... it does. You really need to read up on acoustics and electro acoustics Grey, no offense but you miss some important things.
Try this;
Stand in a corner in a room and thump your chest with your fist, you will get a very good indication of the rooms low frequency behaviour, and you will understand that whay you said earlier is incorrect.
Also you may want to go to Adire and read some on "speed" and bass drivers to get a better grip on how mass and inductance affect a driver in the pass band.
Cheers! 🙂
/Peter
I did read up some on the Quad ESL and it seems it has about 0.1% THD in the midrange, dipping down to 0.03%. This is similar to Seas W22. Dist. at 40Hz seems to equal W22 at 80Hz, but using a couple W22 will give similar numbers I guess.
This are not exact "science" since measurments did not take place under identical condistions, but it may serve as an indication.
So it seems like ribbons, dynamic drivers and ESLs all can give about the same low distortion if well executed. I have not seen anything that indicates a tweeter with lower distortion than the Accuton´s though. Possibly the ionic tweeters would be better in the top.
I would be interested in seeing some CSD plots on ESLs, please post a link if you know of any.
/Peter
This are not exact "science" since measurments did not take place under identical condistions, but it may serve as an indication.
So it seems like ribbons, dynamic drivers and ESLs all can give about the same low distortion if well executed. I have not seen anything that indicates a tweeter with lower distortion than the Accuton´s though. Possibly the ionic tweeters would be better in the top.
I would be interested in seeing some CSD plots on ESLs, please post a link if you know of any.
/Peter
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