I have just found a really nice pair of EPI 180s and in the interest of diy, I am contemplating building a pair of M201 clones, just for fun.
Even though i have found little in the way of positive comments about the 180, they present a huge soundstage and substantial bass output while having a sweet overall presentation. However they look rather cumbersome in my smallish room and I hear good things about the 201s when placed wide and against the front wall.
The clones can be made from one 4 x 8 sheet of ply or mdf.
Does anyone have knowledge of any internal bracing in the original 201?
Attached is a pic of the 180 which uses the same driver complement as the 201.
Cheers
Peter
Even though i have found little in the way of positive comments about the 180, they present a huge soundstage and substantial bass output while having a sweet overall presentation. However they look rather cumbersome in my smallish room and I hear good things about the 201s when placed wide and against the front wall.
The clones can be made from one 4 x 8 sheet of ply or mdf.
Does anyone have knowledge of any internal bracing in the original 201?
Attached is a pic of the 180 which uses the same driver complement as the 201.
Cheers
Peter
Attachments
There was no significant bracing in the 201s. You have probably noticed how heavy your 180s are(I have 2 pr-hate to move them). Years ago, a friend and I made a set of modified 201s, we separated the woofers into compartments, the lower getting about two thirds of the box, the lower tweeter up high next to the top tweeter which was brought toward the front. I believe we had a more complex crossover than the original.
Since the basic design gives a fairly low Qb, the internal forces are lower than in a little 100, for example, so a braced lighter box should work fine. The more complex shape allowed EPI to use thinner panels than in our 180s, this is why the 201s are about twenty pounds lighter than the 180s.
One thing you might try is a little taller and narrower, might work better in a small room with closer furniture. Baffle step shift more than overcome by wall reinforcement. I often have to eq down the bass on the 180s when near walls anyway.
Have fun, you can pretty much do whatever your room asks with these drivers, just look at all the shapes EPI and Genesis put them into. I do lean toward the less simple crossovers used later by EPI and by Genesis, but make your own with modern techniques rather than copy the old ones, but you can start with the simple high-pass only when playing with boxes. Just try a more complex crossover once you have your final boxes and you can compare and see if you need it in your room.
Since the basic design gives a fairly low Qb, the internal forces are lower than in a little 100, for example, so a braced lighter box should work fine. The more complex shape allowed EPI to use thinner panels than in our 180s, this is why the 201s are about twenty pounds lighter than the 180s.
One thing you might try is a little taller and narrower, might work better in a small room with closer furniture. Baffle step shift more than overcome by wall reinforcement. I often have to eq down the bass on the 180s when near walls anyway.
Have fun, you can pretty much do whatever your room asks with these drivers, just look at all the shapes EPI and Genesis put them into. I do lean toward the less simple crossovers used later by EPI and by Genesis, but make your own with modern techniques rather than copy the old ones, but you can start with the simple high-pass only when playing with boxes. Just try a more complex crossover once you have your final boxes and you can compare and see if you need it in your room.
Thanks for the very informative reply. As a matter of interest, how do compare the in room performance of the 180 vs 201?
I have the 180s on solid 15" high stands about 24" from the front wall. Bass is exceptionally flat down to 40hz but the 500-1200hz range is +5-6db making voices quite forward but very smooth. Great for opera. Maybe if I put them against the wall, that would raise the bass level and effectively flatten the curve.
Nowadays we all seem obsessed with having tweeters about 36-40" high at approx. ear level. How did the shorter 201s perform on the floor or did you use stands?
Were you able to compare the 201s you made with separate woofer compartments to the original 201.
Thanks again
Peter
I have the 180s on solid 15" high stands about 24" from the front wall. Bass is exceptionally flat down to 40hz but the 500-1200hz range is +5-6db making voices quite forward but very smooth. Great for opera. Maybe if I put them against the wall, that would raise the bass level and effectively flatten the curve.
Nowadays we all seem obsessed with having tweeters about 36-40" high at approx. ear level. How did the shorter 201s perform on the floor or did you use stands?
Were you able to compare the 201s you made with separate woofer compartments to the original 201.
Thanks again
Peter
Hi Peter,
I tried to respond the other day, but the forum ate my homework. Apparently my browser reupped the page while I was writing, anyway I'll try again.
They are very different. The 201 against a wall makes an image beyond the front wall, where the 180 makes an image between you and the speakers(toe-in will pull it toward the front wall).
I would try various placements to find where you work with the room better. Try each with and without the stand. On the floor you might try 3/4 to 1 inch under the front edge. A drawing of your room would help.
The 201s should be on the floor against a wall.
The modded 201 went louder, but the sensitivity was in between the 4 and 16 ohm settings. We did not have enough drivers to A/B in stereo but we matched the levels best we could, and in mono A/B the modded one was cleaner when loud and had better bass at very low levels. Very similar at moderate levels, though.
All I can recall for now- it was thirty years ago.
best, David
I tried to respond the other day, but the forum ate my homework. Apparently my browser reupped the page while I was writing, anyway I'll try again.
They are very different. The 201 against a wall makes an image beyond the front wall, where the 180 makes an image between you and the speakers(toe-in will pull it toward the front wall).
I would try various placements to find where you work with the room better. Try each with and without the stand. On the floor you might try 3/4 to 1 inch under the front edge. A drawing of your room would help.
The 201s should be on the floor against a wall.
The modded 201 went louder, but the sensitivity was in between the 4 and 16 ohm settings. We did not have enough drivers to A/B in stereo but we matched the levels best we could, and in mono A/B the modded one was cleaner when loud and had better bass at very low levels. Very similar at moderate levels, though.
All I can recall for now- it was thirty years ago.
best, David
I'd avoid an absolute clone of the 201 - i.e. avoid extend the side panels beyond the slanted top panel.
"I'd avoid an absolute clone of the 201 - i.e. avoid extend the side panels beyond the slanted top panel. "
+1
+1
Good stuff, Dave. Thanks for the tips. I have yet to try the 180s against the wall, raised or otherwise. These speakers are growing on me in their current location. Head to head with my recapped AR2ax, they really hold their own. More boogie than the ARs but not as refined.
Chris and djk..........I was thinking the same thing about removing that 2-3" extension on each side. I just found some well cured 1" thick oak in the shed, so the sides are being cut as we speak. The side profile will be more like that on the Silent Speaker, with may be a 1/4" extension above the sloping baffle. I do prefer the looks of the 201 though with their extension. Probably a marketing decision.
Peter
Chris and djk..........I was thinking the same thing about removing that 2-3" extension on each side. I just found some well cured 1" thick oak in the shed, so the sides are being cut as we speak. The side profile will be more like that on the Silent Speaker, with may be a 1/4" extension above the sloping baffle. I do prefer the looks of the 201 though with their extension. Probably a marketing decision.
Peter
I'd be inclined to think that was a case where Winslow just had to through his hands in the air and say, "whatever, dudes, I guess if you guys in marketing don't understand the concept of diffraction then our customers won't hear it? Oh what, some prefer the 'Quartet'? Gee, don't ask me why that might be"
If you look at the Humanspeakers site you can find the replica/homage 250s that Huw built after he sold his original pair. Sleek, flush, and rounded over it's still obviously a 250.
You could take the 'shoulders' down to flush or flush with a hard grill plate like my Dittons(-a harder masonite with tight-fitting cutouts that make the weird old Celestion tweeter flush with the grill in place).
You're keeping the design, but changing the execution.
You could take the 'shoulders' down to flush or flush with a hard grill plate like my Dittons(-a harder masonite with tight-fitting cutouts that make the weird old Celestion tweeter flush with the grill in place).
You're keeping the design, but changing the execution.
David...
I plan to make a grille using either hardboard or 1/4 mdf and flush the "shoulders"
With them. Or close to flush.
How come all the "vintage" box cabinets have a distinct 3/8" or 1/2" shoulders? They certainly sound good despite or because of them. Were the designers early on the learning curve?
I plan to make a grille using either hardboard or 1/4 mdf and flush the "shoulders"
With them. Or close to flush.
How come all the "vintage" box cabinets have a distinct 3/8" or 1/2" shoulders? They certainly sound good despite or because of them. Were the designers early on the learning curve?
Bigger baffles, bigger drivers, mostly. Modern speakers idealise a 'point source' floating in space, our big old boxes have 3 sq ft of integrated boundary surface, and as many are meant to be placed at one or more room boundaries, your effective reinforcement is a different world from a quasi-anechoic point like a small box on a stand, or an LXmini.
Not better, just different. I think that measurement derived DSP with a point source has greater potential for room effect mitigation, but there is something to be said for being less disturbed by the room and giving up on fixing the tiniest deviations(at your measuring point, you must still compromise your eq if you move around).
Not better, just different. I think that measurement derived DSP with a point source has greater potential for room effect mitigation, but there is something to be said for being less disturbed by the room and giving up on fixing the tiniest deviations(at your measuring point, you must still compromise your eq if you move around).
I put together the first cabinet yesterday. Highly musical and the most "unboxy" sound I have heard from a box. Against the front wall, bass is a little boomy, but pulled 10" out, it is fine. Side panels are made of 1" thick red oak and the assembly is heavier than the model 180 donor cabinet.
4 ohm configuration with a Dayton 8.2uf cap on each tweeter with no attenuation yet.
Not sure about the "room filling sound" claims, but we'll see when I have a stereo pair.
I'll play with some attenuation on the top tweeter later.
My AR 2ax are now up for sale.
Peter
4 ohm configuration with a Dayton 8.2uf cap on each tweeter with no attenuation yet.
Not sure about the "room filling sound" claims, but we'll see when I have a stereo pair.
I'll play with some attenuation on the top tweeter later.
My AR 2ax are now up for sale.
Peter
Attachments
These speakers are quite remarkable. Besides having a very sweet midrange, the deep bass that they put out is very convincing. If you can tolerate the "trash can" appearance, highly recommended.
I'm glad they turned out well. Isn't it nice when parts are genuinely engineered to work together?(not just marketing cowpatties)
Any finish on them yet? When you have got them pretty, send a picture to Huw at Human for his gallery. But show them to us first.
Are you far from Roanoke? I'd love to see/hear them if we're visiting Linda's sister.
Enjoy, David
Any finish on them yet? When you have got them pretty, send a picture to Huw at Human for his gallery. But show them to us first.
Are you far from Roanoke? I'd love to see/hear them if we're visiting Linda's sister.
Enjoy, David
No finish yet. The oak boards that I used for the sides aren't the greatest and will take a bit of work to make them decent. I have full face grille cloth covering them and the household manager is very pleased with them. So that is a plus!
I am about 8 hours away by car. Too far for a glass of wine and a few LPs.
Thanks for all the help.
Peter
I am about 8 hours away by car. Too far for a glass of wine and a few LPs.
Thanks for all the help.
Peter
Hi Peter,
This has been a couple years but how are you 201 clones holding up? I've been considering doing this too, but am not sure of the internal dimensions of the original. It looks you have some internal bracing front to back near the center of the box, but I take it that is all? Also, are there just cleats at the corners of the box, or is there another layer of mdf inside of the oak boards? I'd love to see that oak finished; I bet it looks awesome!
This has been a couple years but how are you 201 clones holding up? I've been considering doing this too, but am not sure of the internal dimensions of the original. It looks you have some internal bracing front to back near the center of the box, but I take it that is all? Also, are there just cleats at the corners of the box, or is there another layer of mdf inside of the oak boards? I'd love to see that oak finished; I bet it looks awesome!
I disassembled the speakers some time ago, after someone bought the 4 woofers and 4 tweeters in order to make a clone of the EPI 1000.
The only internal brace was a front to back 1”x1” similar to the 180.
The side cheeks were 1” red oak and the remainder, 3/4” mdf. Now repurposed.
The only internal brace was a front to back 1”x1” similar to the 180.
The side cheeks were 1” red oak and the remainder, 3/4” mdf. Now repurposed.