Hello All! First let me introduce myself as just a basic user looking to play with old hardware. I'm no audiophile, but I do like these forums because I'm feeling a bit nostalgic.
I have an old mid 70's BSR MacDonald 6500X that I'm hooking into a rather low end 2004 RCA AV receiver. I don't have any phono inputs on this receiver, so I'm dealing with a standard LINE IN. CLEARLY, I am not an audiophile and I do not have a valuable record collection, so let's cast those concerns aside for now. Maybe that'll change in a few years, but not today.
Our family played many records on this turntable back in the 70s. It was a separate component of a Montgomery Wards Airline component stereo if I remember correctly. I guess you could call this a table top system since shelf systems didn't come out 'til around the 80's or so. Anyway, the receiver died back in the 70's and the turntable has been sitting in my parents attic ever since.
Well, now that we're settling the estate, I found this thing in a surprisingly good condition and brought it home. I blew the dust off, hooked it up to my AV receiver and, without any service whatsoever, it worked. The platter took a minute to find it's momentum, but I was able to play an old KISS record on it. It played through my AV system speakers as long as I turned up the volume, but of course the sound was quite tinny and lacking in bass.
So my questions are:
1. Will "wiseoldtech's" circuit (please see attached from another thread) significantly improve the sound or should I also add a cheapo pre-amp for a Balanced Magnetic cartridge?
2. Is there anything I need to look for in a pre-amp in terms of it being able to handle the output that'll come from this circuit?
I would like to enjoy "very good" sound from some of our old records, but I wouldn't expect to impress audiophiles. I've looked up a number of videos and blogs about how to get this unit cleaned up and lubricated, so that is also on the agenda. The old ceramic cartridge was a BSR SC7M and the way it was mounted, I'm not sure that it could accept a magnetic cart even if I wanted to go that route.
I may look for a new needle while I'm at it and I may even get one of those little sensors to check the tone arm tracking weight. The adjustment on this unit is a spring tensioner. It does also have anti-skate adjustment and there are numerous videos about how to check this.
I'm also attaching the only file I can find online for this model of turnstile. It's not much, just a flyer, but at least it gave me a manufacturer's picture to share and a few useful details.
I have an old mid 70's BSR MacDonald 6500X that I'm hooking into a rather low end 2004 RCA AV receiver. I don't have any phono inputs on this receiver, so I'm dealing with a standard LINE IN. CLEARLY, I am not an audiophile and I do not have a valuable record collection, so let's cast those concerns aside for now. Maybe that'll change in a few years, but not today.
Our family played many records on this turntable back in the 70s. It was a separate component of a Montgomery Wards Airline component stereo if I remember correctly. I guess you could call this a table top system since shelf systems didn't come out 'til around the 80's or so. Anyway, the receiver died back in the 70's and the turntable has been sitting in my parents attic ever since.
Well, now that we're settling the estate, I found this thing in a surprisingly good condition and brought it home. I blew the dust off, hooked it up to my AV receiver and, without any service whatsoever, it worked. The platter took a minute to find it's momentum, but I was able to play an old KISS record on it. It played through my AV system speakers as long as I turned up the volume, but of course the sound was quite tinny and lacking in bass.
So my questions are:
1. Will "wiseoldtech's" circuit (please see attached from another thread) significantly improve the sound or should I also add a cheapo pre-amp for a Balanced Magnetic cartridge?
2. Is there anything I need to look for in a pre-amp in terms of it being able to handle the output that'll come from this circuit?
I would like to enjoy "very good" sound from some of our old records, but I wouldn't expect to impress audiophiles. I've looked up a number of videos and blogs about how to get this unit cleaned up and lubricated, so that is also on the agenda. The old ceramic cartridge was a BSR SC7M and the way it was mounted, I'm not sure that it could accept a magnetic cart even if I wanted to go that route.
I may look for a new needle while I'm at it and I may even get one of those little sensors to check the tone arm tracking weight. The adjustment on this unit is a spring tensioner. It does also have anti-skate adjustment and there are numerous videos about how to check this.
I'm also attaching the only file I can find online for this model of turnstile. It's not much, just a flyer, but at least it gave me a manufacturer's picture to share and a few useful details.
I remember a very similar turntable made by Garrard, that our family had when I was a bit younger 😉 I also used the "cartridge loading" trick but then you need to connect the output to a phono preamplifier. Such preamp circuit can be built from a single operational amplifier and can be run from 2 x 9V batteries (at least this was what I had done). You can find examples in Application Notes of manufacturers (like Texas Instruments NE5534AN).
Unfortunately the cartridge is a special mount, so upgrading is out of question. And the stylus is made of sapphire, not diamond. Sapphire will wear pretty quickly, and you don't know its condition.
The most you can do is to remove the platter, clean the inside rim, remove the idler wheel, wash it in warm water with soap, put a drop oil to the idler bearing and to the platter bearing.
If your records are valuable for you, don't play them on this machine. (I remember our Garrard did nasty things, like dropping the next LP from the stack to the one just being played...)
Unfortunately the cartridge is a special mount, so upgrading is out of question. And the stylus is made of sapphire, not diamond. Sapphire will wear pretty quickly, and you don't know its condition.
The most you can do is to remove the platter, clean the inside rim, remove the idler wheel, wash it in warm water with soap, put a drop oil to the idler bearing and to the platter bearing.
If your records are valuable for you, don't play them on this machine. (I remember our Garrard did nasty things, like dropping the next LP from the stack to the one just being played...)
Sorry, my circuit isn't meant for that type of hookup.
It clearly shows connecting it to an RIAA magnetic phono input, not a line level input.
And adding a "cheapo" RIAA preamp will likely result in poor overall sound do to platter rumble.
What you've got going on is an incompatability issue - attempting to mix an old record changer with a modern amplifier which wasn't designed for such a hookup.
And that inexpensive BSR changer cannot be "upgraded" with any suitable result, sorry.
It's simply not designed to use a magnetic cartridge - which would hum like crazy if installed in that machine.
Best thing is to find an older, vintage amplifier designed to accept a ceramic cartridge turntable,....
Or, get another turntable that uses a magnetic cartridge, and has a built in RIAA preamp, to use with that RCA.
It clearly shows connecting it to an RIAA magnetic phono input, not a line level input.
And adding a "cheapo" RIAA preamp will likely result in poor overall sound do to platter rumble.
What you've got going on is an incompatability issue - attempting to mix an old record changer with a modern amplifier which wasn't designed for such a hookup.
And that inexpensive BSR changer cannot be "upgraded" with any suitable result, sorry.
It's simply not designed to use a magnetic cartridge - which would hum like crazy if installed in that machine.
Best thing is to find an older, vintage amplifier designed to accept a ceramic cartridge turntable,....
Or, get another turntable that uses a magnetic cartridge, and has a built in RIAA preamp, to use with that RCA.
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I see you have bought into the thinking and long term myth of "do not stack your records".
This was marketing hype of long ago, designed to increase the sales of single play turntables - in effect "scaring" people to not use a record changer.
Which of course, is all nothing but nonsense, if you take the time to research things.
Very late in my life, I found out why some record companies did it the annoying way of producing double albums with side1+4 on one disc and side 2+3 on the other. These were actually made for record changers 🙂 🙂
>Maybe that'll change in a few years, but not today.
I see the bug has a firm bite ;')
When I was in middle school (say, 1972), I managed to get ahold of a magnetic cartridge. On the first rotation of the platter after the music began, my ears told me there was no going back. My father, bless his heart, provided the family with a small AC/DC tube amp and ceramic cartridge TT - he simply didnt know any better - and probably didnt value the additional expenditure. It was I who was driven to explore sound quality further.
Aside from nostalgia, there's little reason to keep such a wimpy playback device - "good sound", nevermind "very good sound" being simply out of reach of its capability. It's kind of a down near the bottom of the barrel, consumer device of its era.
Recognizing this, you can still keep the nostalgia part by selling that one and upgrading to something with much better sound via a magnetic cartridge. I'd guess a price range from maybe $100 to the sky's the limit. A mag cartridge preamp to match your amplifier's line level inputs, from maybe $25 to the sky's the limit. Ebay can be your friend here - as well as sales and thrifts. The hard part is to recognize something worth buying and accurately ***** - ok ascertain - its condition, in the moment of opportunity. Certainly if the moment is not transient - as in "this guy said he'd sell me" - you can ask here - there's lot of experienced folks who could tell you it's a deal, just OK - or ripoff.
Hope this helps,
I see the bug has a firm bite ;')
When I was in middle school (say, 1972), I managed to get ahold of a magnetic cartridge. On the first rotation of the platter after the music began, my ears told me there was no going back. My father, bless his heart, provided the family with a small AC/DC tube amp and ceramic cartridge TT - he simply didnt know any better - and probably didnt value the additional expenditure. It was I who was driven to explore sound quality further.
Aside from nostalgia, there's little reason to keep such a wimpy playback device - "good sound", nevermind "very good sound" being simply out of reach of its capability. It's kind of a down near the bottom of the barrel, consumer device of its era.
Recognizing this, you can still keep the nostalgia part by selling that one and upgrading to something with much better sound via a magnetic cartridge. I'd guess a price range from maybe $100 to the sky's the limit. A mag cartridge preamp to match your amplifier's line level inputs, from maybe $25 to the sky's the limit. Ebay can be your friend here - as well as sales and thrifts. The hard part is to recognize something worth buying and accurately ***** - ok ascertain - its condition, in the moment of opportunity. Certainly if the moment is not transient - as in "this guy said he'd sell me" - you can ask here - there's lot of experienced folks who could tell you it's a deal, just OK - or ripoff.
Hope this helps,
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You might consider purchasing something like a Audio-Technica AT-LP60X turntable. They can be had for $100 new and have a built in phono pre. This will allow you to spin those old records and get reasonable sound from them into your current system. Be sure to give the records a good clean before dropping the needle.
Thanks to everyone and wiseoldtech in particular since you were the person I was hoping would respond. I appreciate the time all of you took for the responses.
Well, my plan was to stick with the ceramic cart. I just mention that swapping in a MM cart is not a likely possibility since I expected that to come up as a recommendation. I also understand that better TT options can be had for reasonable money.
Regarding the circuit, just to clarify, you're telling me that:
- ceramic cart to
- your circuit to
- RIAA preamp to
- LINE IN
- ceramic cart to
- your circuit to
- RIAA magnetic phono input
I was banking on a preamp being an equivalent to the phone input, but I can understand how that might not be the case. Good to know.
Incidentally, I did see some preamps on Amazon that claim to quell turntable rumble, but maybe that claim only pertains to MM and MC carts? They weren't the cheapest models available, but not top of the line either. I guess maybe this is where we start getting into the laws of diminishing returns vs just buying new equipment.
Another thing is that I've read that these ceramics can be affected by moisture over time. If I need to replace this cart, I don't even know if I can still get a ceramic that will fit the current arm. The thought of tweaking and tinkering with this thing does still intrigue me, but I'm not sure if I've got the time and inclination to add another unfinished project to my wife's list. 😉
The:
Regarding the circuit, just to clarify, you're telling me that:
The Line input is relevent only if the amp doesn't have a dedicated RIAA/Magnetic phono input.
My circuit AKA adapter is to allow a high output/high impedence ceramic cartridge to be used with a low input/low impedence RIAA/phono input.
Of course, two of those circuits are required for stereo, and assembled in a shielded box to eliminate hum issues.
As for replacing that original cartridge/stylus, they are available through Voice Of Music, V-M Audio Enthusiasts and Gary there is a great guy to deal with - I've dealt with him for decades now for various parts for my customer's machines.
Regarding the circuit, just to clarify, you're telling me that:
- ceramic cart to
- your circuit to
- RIAA preamp to
- LINE IN
- ceramic cart to
- your circuit to
- RIAA magnetic phono input
The Line input is relevent only if the amp doesn't have a dedicated RIAA/Magnetic phono input.
My circuit AKA adapter is to allow a high output/high impedence ceramic cartridge to be used with a low input/low impedence RIAA/phono input.
Of course, two of those circuits are required for stereo, and assembled in a shielded box to eliminate hum issues.
As for replacing that original cartridge/stylus, they are available through Voice Of Music, V-M Audio Enthusiasts and Gary there is a great guy to deal with - I've dealt with him for decades now for various parts for my customer's machines.
OK, I think I'm starting to get some clarity... and sorry for my slow comprehension here since I am totally new at this and not well versed yet in electronics...
- Does your solution assume that a RIAA preamp will be included before running it into a MM/MC phono input on a receiver? It seems like you did state that in your February response, but I missed that detail.
- So would you make any changes to your "impedance matching" circuit before connecting to a MM pre-amp and on to a LINE input? Or is that really a lost cause? (I think it's starting to sink in now?) 😀
- Incidentally, I note that another online seller for the replacement carts states Recommended Load Impedance: 47,000 Ω. Since everyone here is referring to 1M Ω for input impedance, I assume that 1M Ω is simply a value that the ceramic cart won't be expected to exceed. Am I correctly understanding that piece of the equation?
Once more...hopefully to eliminate confusion....!
Let's not overthink this...... please.
My circuit is to adapt a ceramic cartridge's IMPEDANCE and VOLTAGE LEVEL to a LEVEL compatible with an RIAA/PHONO input on the BACK of an ampifier that already HAS such a phono input.
IF NOT such an input is on the amp, THEN an RIAA MAGNETIC preamp is required and installed into a LINE LEVEL/AUX input.
CERAMIC cartridges NEED a HIGH load value of 1/2 to 1 meg IN ORDER to sound right.
MAGNETIC cartridges use a much lower loading = 47,000 ohms.
MY CIRCUIT will produce good sounding results when connected as shown.
Stellar! Thank you so much. I don't mind dealing with a pre-amp. This will be a fun endeavor for starters. Down the road I'm also hoping to take on another fun project when I retrofit this 1930s radio with my AV receiver.
I'm going to put the original guts of it in storage and see if I can figure an ideal way to create a faceplate for the 2004 RCA AV receiver that looks reasonably vintage while maintaining the 5.1 functionality. I've already got the center speaker and the subwoofer sitting inside the cabinet and the AV receiver is just sitting on top for now.
Then I'll mount the other 4 speakers into retro housings and mount them on pedestals around the living room. Hoping I can come up with something pretty cool. For the turntable, I'll come up with a vintage housing to sit on top of the radio cabinet and maybe I'll slip that BSR into it. The room should have a real Art Deco or Art Nouveau feel by that point.
I'm going to put the original guts of it in storage and see if I can figure an ideal way to create a faceplate for the 2004 RCA AV receiver that looks reasonably vintage while maintaining the 5.1 functionality. I've already got the center speaker and the subwoofer sitting inside the cabinet and the AV receiver is just sitting on top for now.
Then I'll mount the other 4 speakers into retro housings and mount them on pedestals around the living room. Hoping I can come up with something pretty cool. For the turntable, I'll come up with a vintage housing to sit on top of the radio cabinet and maybe I'll slip that BSR into it. The room should have a real Art Deco or Art Nouveau feel by that point.
I guess you could say that I was one of its original owners of this old BSR, but the last time I put hands on it was probably 40+ years ago. The last time I even touched any turntable was 38 years ago when I was still living in my parents house.
Yea, I recall once or twice when the changers of the past would drop more than one record during a change (just an annoyance really), but maybe only once did I ever see one drop on a stylus. It was a rare event, but it's not like it never happens - particularly if something is out of alignment. If a problem starts, it's typically going to be recurring with increasing frequency.
I've seen a few good clips on YouTube on how to clean these things - much like what you're saying. Definitely going to do that and order a new stylus before I try putting another album on the platter. If that grease is getting hard, then I don't want to putting the motor and other things under repeated strain.
Yeppers! And that was how we listened to our playlists. The only thing easier was an 8 track cassette tape.
Yea, my father "always-never" went with anything higher than a Montgomery Wards Airline or maybe a Realistic. I remember platter rumble.Yes, thanks for the insight. If I'm not pleased with what I can squeeze out of this for sound, within very reasonable cost, then I'll go out and pick up a new one. I'm defintely going to do some hobbyist tweeking on this one first though.
Sounds good. If I build the wood TT enclosure to sit on top of my old Atwater-Kent radio cabinet, I'll likely go with something new to drop in it. The big clear plastic lid on this BSR wouldn't exactly sit well with my motif. I'm going for a 1920s-1930s vibe whereas this just totally screams 1974. And I suppose when you decide to push the music though a 5.1 system, you can probably expect any defects in playback to be that much more intrusive.
Amazing! I swear I once owned the same vintage metal cast speaker - and the same blue chair in the last photo. Good luck with your 20's - 30's motif audio; I like it! 'Passed on a large windup Victrola this summer; when I went back to ponder a 2nd time, someone was loading it in their truck!
I haven't checked SC7M, but as I mentioned somewhere else I recently resurrected, overhauled and restored really old turntables like Garraard 401 (my grandfathers), Technics SL-1200 my dad's and my first audio deck as a child Sanyo DXT5420 which is a combo of 8 track tape, cassette and a turntable.
Incidentally the turntable uses BSR direct drive mechanical and the cartridge is BSR SC12M which is also a ceramic one, but the stylus was broken.
Buying anything from ebay is a PITA in my country as we don't have paypal service and ebay doesnt accept our credit cards.
So I explored the cartridge and stylus, prima facie BSR cartridge are tied to the tonearm/casing with a screw top down.
I opened up the screw to dismantle the cartridge and ordered this one from aliexpress just for the sake of testing.
Well it is working like a charm, I changed nothing in the electronic hardware "so far" except may be changing a few electrolytic capacitors, as for audiophile jargon I don't really care about them as long as the audio output is pleasant to listen, there isn't any hum/hiss.
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