soongsc said:
Hi,
And so should Bud, being the point.
The jury is still out on whether we are being sold snake oil.
😉/sreten.
Bud, everything you hear as changes is nothing more than altered frequency response, that is evident. You may not have intended enabl to do that or may have incorrectly assumed it was not that, but the fact is that this is the extent of the change. If one is to hear a change, the FR must change, there' s no getting around that fact.
You may claim what you will, but the vast majority of drivers do not have something being masked that enabl "uncovers". Well, make that good drivers. Bad ones mask a lot by introducing a lot of linear distortion due to bad frequency response. If you do plan to continue making that claim, please take it to the other thread, it has no place here unless there is other than anecdotal evidence.
As to this thread, I would be very interested to see someone with an already very good, very expensive 3-way system take on the challenge of painting their drivers, all of them since you say they should, and providing before/after measurements. I personally see no benefit, but there must be someone out there with measuring capability and a big-buck multi-way system willing to subject their drivers to this and documenting the changes. Surely someone will take your word for it, no matter the cost of their drivers or system.
So how about it? Is anybody out there reading this inclined to do so? Please jump in if you are.
Heck Bud, you're so sure of improvement to all drivers, I suggest that you offer your assurance with a quarantee of driver replacement should they find it to be less than a dramatic change or, dare I say it, detrimental.
Dave
You may claim what you will, but the vast majority of drivers do not have something being masked that enabl "uncovers". Well, make that good drivers. Bad ones mask a lot by introducing a lot of linear distortion due to bad frequency response. If you do plan to continue making that claim, please take it to the other thread, it has no place here unless there is other than anecdotal evidence.
As to this thread, I would be very interested to see someone with an already very good, very expensive 3-way system take on the challenge of painting their drivers, all of them since you say they should, and providing before/after measurements. I personally see no benefit, but there must be someone out there with measuring capability and a big-buck multi-way system willing to subject their drivers to this and documenting the changes. Surely someone will take your word for it, no matter the cost of their drivers or system.
So how about it? Is anybody out there reading this inclined to do so? Please jump in if you are.
Heck Bud, you're so sure of improvement to all drivers, I suggest that you offer your assurance with a quarantee of driver replacement should they find it to be less than a dramatic change or, dare I say it, detrimental.
Dave
Obviously you have no experience with the big buck systems. The only reason why one would not want to modify them is that the market value is not determined by how good it sounds, but just the brand and the make. If you modify it, you would have a hard time reselling it because it is nolonger authentic. This is what I understand from second hand dealers of these kinds of systems.😀 Now tell us what is a good big bucks system you think is a good candidate?😀dlr said:
testing systems
The heck with (current day) big buck systems... there must be litterally thousands of AR, KLH, Advent, Altec VOT's, JBL,Klipsch etc... from the wonder years of Hi-Fi floating around that have been characterized to death that could be easily "painted up", after confirming prior measurements, then retested after "tweaking".
Just check out audiokarma.org...😉
I'd do it, on my Advent 6002's, except I'm happy using them as is as rear channels in my 7.1 main system with room eq.
John L.
soongsc said:
The heck with (current day) big buck systems... there must be litterally thousands of AR, KLH, Advent, Altec VOT's, JBL,Klipsch etc... from the wonder years of Hi-Fi floating around that have been characterized to death that could be easily "painted up", after confirming prior measurements, then retested after "tweaking".
Just check out audiokarma.org...😉
I'd do it, on my Advent 6002's, except I'm happy using them as is as rear channels in my 7.1 main system with room eq.
John L.
soongsc said:
You haven't a clue as to what systems I have heard, but that is immaterial. There are likely many reasons why one would not want to modify a system. You assume much from the standpoint of little or no knowledge at times.
Big buck systems include those designed and/or built DIY. I'll let the people spending the money determine what they consider big buck systems, not you. A DIYer may spend quite a bit. It's more likely that a DIYer will tweak a driver as well, I suspect. Since Bud believes that ALMOST ALL drivers will benefit, ANY big-buck system, commercial or DIY, will supposedly benefit. By his reckoning, those commercial ones you likely would disdain would suddenly be vastly improved. Bud believes very sincerely that something is "missing from almost all drivers and the uncovering of those characteristics in almost all drivers is a beneficial change."
This is just another of your frequent straw-man posts. I await Bud's response.
Dave
dlr said:
Let me correct that. It's not Bud's response I'm looking for, it's the owners of self-described big buck systems, commercial or DIY. They have been notably absent, especially those with the ability to measure. It's more likely that this will be a DIYer that has invested some real bucks in their own system. I'm waiting to see someone, anyone, with a good 3-way do the mods and measurements to all of their drivers as suggested.
Dave
Beam me up Scottie ......
Hmmm........
I do not know quite what to make of post # 511 (or #512).
# 511 is remit to talk nonsense and backtrack on anything that does
not suit you. I'm staggered at the lack of sheer common sense in # 511.
I do for one and that is the point. You do not seem to care that your
descriptions of EnABL have been from the word go technically wrong
and are still wrong, and your subjective claims of spectacular results
and subjective elimination of effects do not add up at all.
(Using my certain ability to reasonably abstract and analyse reality.)
It looks like snake oil, feels like snake oil, smells like snake oil, it is ....
🙂/sreten.
Hmmm........
I do not know quite what to make of post # 511 (or #512).
# 511 is remit to talk nonsense and backtrack on anything that does
not suit you. I'm staggered at the lack of sheer common sense in # 511.
I do for one and that is the point. You do not seem to care that your
descriptions of EnABL have been from the word go technically wrong
and are still wrong, and your subjective claims of spectacular results
and subjective elimination of effects do not add up at all.
(Using my certain ability to reasonably abstract and analyse reality.)
It looks like snake oil, feels like snake oil, smells like snake oil, it is ....
🙂/sreten.
BudP said:
Apparently you don't. Even though there is no reason the two would have to be mutually exclusive. But a tweak is just that, playing around with the hope something good will happen.
Now, let's consider you long winded explanation of how you arrived at the F200A treatment.
Then look at this post from the other thread and your response a mere 24 hours later. I don't see any claim of a need to listen or take a step by step approach. I see you drew some patterns on the picture Carl posted and indicated that if he wanted more details you needed measurements of the driver, not acoustic, but physical sizes. I guess you only have to listen to your drivers? For other peoples' what the 🤐 , just paint some dots on them and see how it goes, hey? No sweat off your ball. Or maybe you felt that long winded explanation for the F200A was needed because it is an expensive driver and the idea of such a drawn out process would lend credibility to it? What kind of raft of BS:bs: are you floating here? One thing for sure, you don't have to worry about hitting bottom, it's way too deep.
Oh what wicked lives we lead when we first practice to deceive.
dlr
My response is that you are proposing a criminal act. I have already turned down a few multi way system inquiries, because the owners did not want to spend the money to send the entire system to me. I also refused to provide patterns. These were well designed systems and must be treated as such.
I assume you are speaking tongue in cheek here.
John K
Nothing of the sort John. Carl asked for an indication of where I would place patterns on his specific speaker. That is what I provided. If you pay just a little more attention, you will notice that those pattern positions are always on the driver pattern posts I make, for cone drivers. They can be placed elsewhere and in fact can cover an entire driver surface, but you will not find me suggesting anything further than what I provided Carl, unless I have actually done the treatment myself.
Bud
My response is that you are proposing a criminal act. I have already turned down a few multi way system inquiries, because the owners did not want to spend the money to send the entire system to me. I also refused to provide patterns. These were well designed systems and must be treated as such.
I assume you are speaking tongue in cheek here.
John K
Nothing of the sort John. Carl asked for an indication of where I would place patterns on his specific speaker. That is what I provided. If you pay just a little more attention, you will notice that those pattern positions are always on the driver pattern posts I make, for cone drivers. They can be placed elsewhere and in fact can cover an entire driver surface, but you will not find me suggesting anything further than what I provided Carl, unless I have actually done the treatment myself.
Bud
BudP said:
Huh? Just what are you talking about? You lost me entirely on that first one. No, I'm not speaking tongue-in-cheek. I'm dead serious. I'm looking for people who either purchased or made their own (as in DIY) multi-way systems who are planning to do the mod on their own to their own drivers and provide some before/after measurements. But it would be interesting to learn if anyone modified all drivers in a multi-way at all, as you say should be done. No one with such a system who may be reading the threads with any real money invested in a multi-way system has modified their drivers as far as we know, much less with any substantive or even basic measurements. No one seems willing to risk expensive systems.
But as I said, I was not soliciting your input. I'm soliciting input from owners that are now willing to put pen to (doped) paper, so-to-speak, to all of the drivers in their own multi-way based on faith in your claims. So far, the count is zero. I see cheap drivers being used with most being full-range. No high quality midranges or tweeters. I can't even recall any high quality woofers modified by anyone posting in the threads, especially those for which it would be irreversible.
Again I ask, is anyone out there reading this thread who has a big buck system so impressed with the claims that they are going to modify their expensive systems? We'll see how many say yes and actually follow through.
Dave
soongsc said:
😱
I guess everyone is looking for you to donate the big buck system to prove your point.😀 Hey, maybe the system can joint the shootout here. The finals are probably going to be in the summer. Even if you get to run naked, we all at least know it made it to the top three. After than, we can send it to be EnABLed.dlr said:
Gentlemen,
May I request we return to the technical part of the discussion over here? I think the other thread is more appropriate to discuss the theories and impressions.
Thank you.
May I request we return to the technical part of the discussion over here? I think the other thread is more appropriate to discuss the theories and impressions.
Thank you.
Thanks for looking after us. If you think moving this series of the impressons and babble to the other thread, it is much welcome.Cal Weldon said:
Cal Weldon said:
My posts have all been on the technical aspect. I'm not speaking about theories, impressions, "how to" or perceptions at all. I'm asking if anyone is planning on doing the mod to a multi-way system and making measurements. How is that not technical?
Dave
Dave,
You need to give us some guidance on what you'd consider "big buck" systems, else your post belongs on the other thread. I have an older pair of Ohm C2 or some such (3 way, ported) that I did a replacement with a recent (late 1990s) woofer upgrade (by the latest Ohm folks out of NYC). I might consider doing that after I try my el cheapo $25/pair plus center channel Pinnacles (the erstwhile post on the other thread referred to by John K a few posts back). Would you consider this Ohm pair "big buck"? I wouldn't - I'd say in the $2k range would be big buck - but for me and my budget, the Ohms are more than big buck. See how relative that measure is? Please advise (seriously, I'm wondering what type of speaker you were referring to).
Carl
You need to give us some guidance on what you'd consider "big buck" systems, else your post belongs on the other thread. I have an older pair of Ohm C2 or some such (3 way, ported) that I did a replacement with a recent (late 1990s) woofer upgrade (by the latest Ohm folks out of NYC). I might consider doing that after I try my el cheapo $25/pair plus center channel Pinnacles (the erstwhile post on the other thread referred to by John K a few posts back). Would you consider this Ohm pair "big buck"? I wouldn't - I'd say in the $2k range would be big buck - but for me and my budget, the Ohms are more than big buck. See how relative that measure is? Please advise (seriously, I'm wondering what type of speaker you were referring to).
Carl