planet10 said:
Thanks for the offer but I think I'll just do my own. I may use the basic "A" type calligraphy pens I have at hand as I understand you had clogging problems with the Rapidographs.
planet10 said:
These are from Criterion 77 speakers. I only have the "woofers". These are nice midrange drivers and sound good to my ear in an open back box. I don't want to mess that up by coating the whole cone. (I felt little threat from the block pattern.)
Did you get the chance to do the distortion listening test Dave?
maxro said:
Well, that just it, you can never be 100% sure until you try it. I put my speaker where my mouth is though, and took 20 minutes out of my busy schedule to treat a driver.
It took less than 20 minutes (less than 1 minute actually) to not hear a difference.
I was here about 1200 posts ago with the same questions and thought I might be burned at the stake. My opinions were not well received.
Nice to see the 500 are more civilized now. 🙂
MJL21193
Not at all civilized, peer out your curtained window, boffo...
I seem to count about 25 patterns around the center dome and about 40 or so out at the cone edge. Is this close to what you did? Should still have provided more depth of detail. Not a different sound, not a better sound, just more information.
How long a period between 20 minute treatment and 20 minute listen? If it was short, listen again tomorrow or the next day. Is there a similar driver that is untreated? It is actually valid to use another similar driver for information content, as these should not be tonal alterations, or less harmonics, or more for that matter, just amounts of information available.
You do realize that you don't have to answer any of these questions, were still coming for you......
Bud
Not at all civilized, peer out your curtained window, boffo...
I seem to count about 25 patterns around the center dome and about 40 or so out at the cone edge. Is this close to what you did? Should still have provided more depth of detail. Not a different sound, not a better sound, just more information.
How long a period between 20 minute treatment and 20 minute listen? If it was short, listen again tomorrow or the next day. Is there a similar driver that is untreated? It is actually valid to use another similar driver for information content, as these should not be tonal alterations, or less harmonics, or more for that matter, just amounts of information available.
You do realize that you don't have to answer any of these questions, were still coming for you......
Bud
maxro said:
I use a #56. 1.79 vrs $35 at Island Blue. The outer ring is an A3. I haven't gotten an A3 that works as smoothly as the A4s or the #56.
Do you have the Polly Scale & Micro Gloss (BC Shavers on Fort -- i bought a case if you find they are out). Plolly Scale at the model railroad shoh at the North end of the Save-On Foods shopping Centrre across the street from Wally world.
dave
MJL21193 said:
From the pic the didn't look that deep. That is a VERY nice midrange. Well suited to an OB. The 1/2" alnico dome super tweeters & the light brown cone tweeters out of the C77 are very nice too.... the combination of the drivers is not well executed thou.
Are yours the more common ones with the oval basket cutouts or the varied circular holes?
No not yet. Have it open in a window to keep reminding me it needs doing.
dave
planet10 said:
I have the Micro gloss. For the blocks I have some nato black Tamiya acrylic and flat clear Testor's Model Master Acryl, both of which are about as thin as milk. The "clear" one dries as a translucent off-white on a black paper cone. I'll probably use the Tamiya as it is a close colour match to the drivers.
Do keep in mind that, particularily on the 1st ones, having some visula feedback from a contrasting colour is a big benefir. I've been doing the FR125s with dark grey & light grey and even closing in on 100 drivers the light grey ones are better done.
dave
dave
What frequency range is this driver? Note that most here are using full/wide range drivers.MJL21193 said:
This is the last time I'm going to mention it: As mentioned before, on driver cones, the applied patern should be such that the speed of sound is higher than the cone material.
If the pattern is applied to horn edge, then you just need to apply the pattern with the thickness as bud had mentioned, the rectangle blocks should have as distinct edges as you can make them. Note that B&W uses a dimple pattern in their bass reflex port.
There are better educated brains than mine working here, and we are all capable of discussing, so I am not wanting to intrude upon anyone's field of expertise. Also this thread can move on appreciably whilst I sleep.
Hi MJK,
In Post#1739 you wrote of air motion due to pistonic action;-
>> At low frequencies it produces a mass load and at higher frequencies it produces a damping load <<
Surely at higher frequencies air motion cannot any longer be damping but instead parasitic and complex related to cone shape, size wrt wavelength, material etc, which is why tweeters have such small esoteric cones.
Also;
>> The cone vibration at a given frequency produces a response at that same frequency, it does not produce a response at some other frequency. <<
But the 'parasitic' response becomes phase shifted and thus recombines erroneously *in time* with the original wave.
This is where sine examination is useless because phase shifted sine components added back into the original wave merely modify the amplitude and phase of original sine reproduction (CSD peaks and suck-outs etc), but when those *already energised* and surface bound energy components add back into a music waveform which has already moved on, then the result is music waveform distortion.
Surely a cone becomes a reflective cavity at higher AF, with multiple and constantly shifting music energised surface acting pressure-velocity points ?
The 'simple model' itself could become part of the problem in understanding EnABL if the drivers are examined only from a sine measuring point of view, because the real changes arise in music time within the moving cone assembly, also within and around cone's cavity.
This was my reason for suggesting old fashioned 'nulling' examinations with single/burst sine examinations, where the action of EnABL upon delayed surface effect changes might be observed without being masked by the energising fundamentals, and presumably patterns and coating which make for lower residual energy content will be those which will reproduce more cleanly.
Cheers .......... Graham.
Hi MJK,
In Post#1739 you wrote of air motion due to pistonic action;-
>> At low frequencies it produces a mass load and at higher frequencies it produces a damping load <<
Surely at higher frequencies air motion cannot any longer be damping but instead parasitic and complex related to cone shape, size wrt wavelength, material etc, which is why tweeters have such small esoteric cones.
Also;
>> The cone vibration at a given frequency produces a response at that same frequency, it does not produce a response at some other frequency. <<
But the 'parasitic' response becomes phase shifted and thus recombines erroneously *in time* with the original wave.
This is where sine examination is useless because phase shifted sine components added back into the original wave merely modify the amplitude and phase of original sine reproduction (CSD peaks and suck-outs etc), but when those *already energised* and surface bound energy components add back into a music waveform which has already moved on, then the result is music waveform distortion.
Surely a cone becomes a reflective cavity at higher AF, with multiple and constantly shifting music energised surface acting pressure-velocity points ?
The 'simple model' itself could become part of the problem in understanding EnABL if the drivers are examined only from a sine measuring point of view, because the real changes arise in music time within the moving cone assembly, also within and around cone's cavity.
This was my reason for suggesting old fashioned 'nulling' examinations with single/burst sine examinations, where the action of EnABL upon delayed surface effect changes might be observed without being masked by the energising fundamentals, and presumably patterns and coating which make for lower residual energy content will be those which will reproduce more cleanly.
Cheers .......... Graham.
I was starting to wonder whether there is a noticeable relationship of audible improvement versus frequency range. I guess I will know some time down the road.planet10 said:
Hi Dave,
Your impedance plot shows a distinct change in response around 2.5kHz.
As if an energy peak has been tamed between the red and blue plots - hopefully red being a 'before' trace.
Cheers ...... Graham.
Your impedance plot shows a distinct change in response around 2.5kHz.
As if an energy peak has been tamed between the red and blue plots - hopefully red being a 'before' trace.
Cheers ...... Graham.
BudP said:
It's 50 outer and 25 inner. No more detail than I'd normally perceive, certainly not the Earth shattering revelation everyone here experiences.
I let the glue thoroughly dry before listening. I listened for longer than 20 minutes actually.
I have another one untreated to compare it to, but I don't think it would be necessary. If the change is that small to make AB comparison the only way to detect it, I call it a bust.
I scored -45 on the test. someone send me two pairs of drivers, one pair enabled, in nice boxes, stat.
wait, no, don't do that. I hate having to give back nice equipment once I've heard it. I'd rather live under the impression my gear doesnt suck as bad as it does while I build better stuff.
-Jared
wait, no, don't do that. I hate having to give back nice equipment once I've heard it. I'd rather live under the impression my gear doesnt suck as bad as it does while I build better stuff.
-Jared
planet10 said:
Mine have the standard ceramic magnet and 12 oval cutouts.
soongsc said:
That would be the reason I picked that driver to treat - it's frequency response.
Really though, it detracts from the authenticity of the process when you throw up condition that hinge on it's success. Bud's assertion is that it will improve any driver, not just fullrange/widerange.
planet10 said:
That impedance plot is nearly dead on for mine - Fs at 107Hz.
Bud's assertion is that it will improve any driver, not just fullrange/widerange
Now i believe it will and can affect different drivers in a different manner. If the rubber surround is raised it will affect the results greater. If you had a raised steel ring where the surround was the effect might still be greater. I cannot see any real imparted energy at lower frequencies due to the fact that the energy centerline is lifted away from the surface. However i could be wrong.
All of the debate reminds me of a physics course i took in my early years( the wheel had just been invented). The prof asked the class to list every physical action of a hammer hitting a nail and driving it into a piece of wood. Everyone went home and the next day we had responses from 13-24. The prof said that if you studied it on an ever smaller micro scale the number of actions increased and kept climbing. He also stated that despite the fact of the number of actions you could not say that the nail did not go into the wood when hit with the hammer.
ron
Now i believe it will and can affect different drivers in a different manner. If the rubber surround is raised it will affect the results greater. If you had a raised steel ring where the surround was the effect might still be greater. I cannot see any real imparted energy at lower frequencies due to the fact that the energy centerline is lifted away from the surface. However i could be wrong.
All of the debate reminds me of a physics course i took in my early years( the wheel had just been invented). The prof asked the class to list every physical action of a hammer hitting a nail and driving it into a piece of wood. Everyone went home and the next day we had responses from 13-24. The prof said that if you studied it on an ever smaller micro scale the number of actions increased and kept climbing. He also stated that despite the fact of the number of actions you could not say that the nail did not go into the wood when hit with the hammer.
ron
- Status
- Not open for further replies.