FrankWW,
What you say is true. However, the difference between treated and untreated drivers, at elevated SPL, is so gross that it would actually end the test, as far as objectivity goes. At lower levels you can make a case for some forms of commonality, but once to the point where the diffraction based corruptions become predominant, the untreated drivers just become obvious and that characteristic roughness will be noticed, as you point out, well down the dB range. So, if there is to be an SPL based portion, it must come at the end, or John will be all over us...
You can, by and large, run these things at their motor limits, without encountering unusual aberrations in sound quality. It is, in fact, one of the draw backs to having a treated system. It just sounds so good you want to turn it up, to hear even more, again and again and !!!POP!!! never again.
Bud
What you say is true. However, the difference between treated and untreated drivers, at elevated SPL, is so gross that it would actually end the test, as far as objectivity goes. At lower levels you can make a case for some forms of commonality, but once to the point where the diffraction based corruptions become predominant, the untreated drivers just become obvious and that characteristic roughness will be noticed, as you point out, well down the dB range. So, if there is to be an SPL based portion, it must come at the end, or John will be all over us...
You can, by and large, run these things at their motor limits, without encountering unusual aberrations in sound quality. It is, in fact, one of the draw backs to having a treated system. It just sounds so good you want to turn it up, to hear even more, again and again and !!!POP!!! never again.
Bud
c2cthomas said:
I think you forgot to convert feet to inches before converting inches to mm. (56"=1422mm)
dave
Bud, a test is a test. If folk can hear a difference, they can hear a difference. Most speakers sound "OK" at low levels. It's high spl's where they start to differ more extremely.
But I was thinking, can't you see the difference between treated and untreated from impulse response?
but the peak energy of the HOM and/or diffraction arrives delayed in time (plus a tail).
The delayed impulse response components of treated and untreated should look different.
I'm gonna have to look back through this thread. I bet I'm reinventing the wheel.
But I was thinking, can't you see the difference between treated and untreated from impulse response?
but the peak energy of the HOM and/or diffraction arrives delayed in time (plus a tail).
The delayed impulse response components of treated and untreated should look different.
I'm gonna have to look back through this thread. I bet I'm reinventing the wheel.
Frank,
You are likely right. The problem lies in interpreting the impluse. I would speculate that seeing the entire impluse event being more compact with less trailing stuff would indicate an improvement.
On a completely different note, i see that your IP address points to you being here in Victoria. Shortly i should have a range of EnABLEd drivers ready for audition.
I have just finished installing my 1st EnABLEd FE127 in a box to start testing (this one is our standard treatment (in blue) with the EnABLE pattern on it. It will likely go thru getting some partial coats of gloss to see how much is needed (or not needed) when doing an already modded driver.
dave
You are likely right. The problem lies in interpreting the impluse. I would speculate that seeing the entire impluse event being more compact with less trailing stuff would indicate an improvement.
On a completely different note, i see that your IP address points to you being here in Victoria. Shortly i should have a range of EnABLEd drivers ready for audition.
I have just finished installing my 1st EnABLEd FE127 in a box to start testing (this one is our standard treatment (in blue) with the EnABLE pattern on it. It will likely go thru getting some partial coats of gloss to see how much is needed (or not needed) when doing an already modded driver.
dave
Attachments
FrankWW
In regards to "the tail" you might find this link of interest.
http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/sid/d_albert/pubs/JASA2003DAlbertObservationsSurfaceWaves.pdf
See page 3.
Happy Reading!
BTW - thanks again Dave - I have now put my mental marbles (both of 'em) back in order. 😀
In regards to "the tail" you might find this link of interest.
http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/sid/d_albert/pubs/JASA2003DAlbertObservationsSurfaceWaves.pdf
See page 3.
Happy Reading!
BTW - thanks again Dave - I have now put my mental marbles (both of 'em) back in order. 😀
planet10 said:
hehe
now - few non-scientific impressions about difference in sound..........
more mellow .......
or yellow?
I'm really curious what you'll say.... ?
people tend to hear what (they think) they see - these would be great for listening to Miles Davis and Buddy Guy
Bud's darker brown paint on the Fostex cones was a glorious match to the mahogany veneer on the Fonken boxes.
The Hemp coned drivers don't offer the same designer flexibility, although it could be fun to play with candy/glitter paint and a strobed black light - "inagaddavida" anyone?
Bud, you remember some of the '60's, right?
Bud's darker brown paint on the Fostex cones was a glorious match to the mahogany veneer on the Fonken boxes.
The Hemp coned drivers don't offer the same designer flexibility, although it could be fun to play with candy/glitter paint and a strobed black light - "inagaddavida" anyone?
Bud, you remember some of the '60's, right?
Hmmm - David Bowie / Elton John version?
Chris - are you asking about the 1960's or Bud's age bracket?
Chris - are you asking about the 1960's or Bud's age bracket?
c2cthomas said:
clever - but I was thinking of the former.
somehow it seemed appropriate when referencing the hemp coned products.
Chris and Thomas,
Good thing there is a few thousand miles of mud between you two... loose brains together are strange and wonderful to behold.
I remember nothing of those days, due to the hemp armada...
Dave,
Nice work. Got it in one.
Bud
Good thing there is a few thousand miles of mud between you two... loose brains together are strange and wonderful to behold.
I remember nothing of those days, due to the hemp armada...
Dave,
Nice work. Got it in one.
Bud
S of France?
Reminds me of the deco of a little B&B we stayed in while touring the S of France...very cool. My ex would approve...for what Thats worth...
Reminds me of the deco of a little B&B we stayed in while touring the S of France...very cool. My ex would approve...for what Thats worth...
FrankWW said:
I think you are right. Whether improved or not is visible from the impulse response.
Any measurements to share? I recently measured an FE126E didn't like the response and low xmax.planet10 said:
Thomas,
How have you been getting on with the Mamboni/Walsh set up ?
Its a shame that the thread has forgotten about the felt treatment as Dr Mamboni
contended that it increases the usable FR. Perhaps if you shared some of your thoughts and findings it would re-ignite some interest?
Cilla
How have you been getting on with the Mamboni/Walsh set up ?
Its a shame that the thread has forgotten about the felt treatment as Dr Mamboni
contended that it increases the usable FR. Perhaps if you shared some of your thoughts and findings it would re-ignite some interest?
Cilla
I'll probably use Mamboni on a set of speakers I am building. The drivers were chosen before these tweaks came to light. They are mtm's with aluminum cones.
Ed,
I'm not familiar with the drivers. Do you intend back or front Mamboni ?
Interesting idea tho' on aluminium cones.
Cilla
I'm not familiar with the drivers. Do you intend back or front Mamboni ?
Interesting idea tho' on aluminium cones.
Cilla
Hi pdan
The Walsh / Mamboni / EnABL project was stalled after my completion of the Alpha and Beta test mules for a couple of reasons: The 1st being spare funds - that problem has been solved but now I'm facing the 2nd problem which is the outdoor location of my portable workshop has been > 100f (106f today - 41c) for the last couple of weeks and there is no relief in sight. At my age I find that I can only for about an hour before I'm used up - so I'm waiting for a bit to proceed there.
In the meantime I have been studying how I might go about getting a bit more punch from the midrange produced by the 10" Pioneers used in the base units - and perhaps a touch more bass (tho not really needed). Now that I have a few "bob" (bucks - greenbacks - dollars) saved up I'm thinking about trying a 12" Pioneer combined with the Mamboni Triangles (front or cone side) and BudP's Enable pattern (on the rear or Magnet side) of the speaker - do some felt treatment around the spider (as suggested by Moray James) and tossing a little molding clay onto the speaker framework to smooth off / round off the edges (ala Planet10). I'm also looking at putting a Karlson slot into the base unit.
Still seeking a modern tweeter to serve as back-ups or replacement for the Heil AMT's although I hate the thought of replacing them as they are very nice - but sooner or later one of them is going to give it up and then I'll be forced to scurry about and rush things. I have the time now to plan for their replacement with something that suitable and supportable - so now is the time to be auditioning possible substitutes that won't sound like a cat trapped trash bin. I'm tempted to try a DIY ESL mid/high tweeter or a magneto-static version of a design I have been playing around with based on ratios base on the "golden ratio"
When things cool off a bit I'll get back to it. In the mean time the units are sounding so good that I find it hard to mess around to much.
The Walsh / Mamboni / EnABL project was stalled after my completion of the Alpha and Beta test mules for a couple of reasons: The 1st being spare funds - that problem has been solved but now I'm facing the 2nd problem which is the outdoor location of my portable workshop has been > 100f (106f today - 41c) for the last couple of weeks and there is no relief in sight. At my age I find that I can only for about an hour before I'm used up - so I'm waiting for a bit to proceed there.
In the meantime I have been studying how I might go about getting a bit more punch from the midrange produced by the 10" Pioneers used in the base units - and perhaps a touch more bass (tho not really needed). Now that I have a few "bob" (bucks - greenbacks - dollars) saved up I'm thinking about trying a 12" Pioneer combined with the Mamboni Triangles (front or cone side) and BudP's Enable pattern (on the rear or Magnet side) of the speaker - do some felt treatment around the spider (as suggested by Moray James) and tossing a little molding clay onto the speaker framework to smooth off / round off the edges (ala Planet10). I'm also looking at putting a Karlson slot into the base unit.
Still seeking a modern tweeter to serve as back-ups or replacement for the Heil AMT's although I hate the thought of replacing them as they are very nice - but sooner or later one of them is going to give it up and then I'll be forced to scurry about and rush things. I have the time now to plan for their replacement with something that suitable and supportable - so now is the time to be auditioning possible substitutes that won't sound like a cat trapped trash bin. I'm tempted to try a DIY ESL mid/high tweeter or a magneto-static version of a design I have been playing around with based on ratios base on the "golden ratio"
When things cool off a bit I'll get back to it. In the mean time the units are sounding so good that I find it hard to mess around to much.
Attachments
c2cthomas said:
Indeed.
Just like the number of available ribbons started exploding 3 or 4 years ago, we are now starting to see Heil's. I have a set of Marks & Daniels which are nice (but much less efficient than the AMT units -- a disadvanatge with a lot of drivers i play with, but a better match for a lot of commonly available midbasses). I also expect to see at least 2 more units from other manufacturers. And if on'e pockets are deep enuff there are the Mundorfs
dave
- Status
- Not open for further replies.