I just discovered that Eminence has increased the wattage in rms much higher for each driver.
Advantages; handles more power for the same speaker at the same price.
Disadvantages; needs high wattage amp to drive them cleanly and unclipped.
So the conclusion is why the heck,Would Eminence Increase the wattage,but not increase the voice coil diametre,magnet size and weight.
The Eminence Beta 15 was originally 150w rms,now is 350w rms,Eminence kilomax 18 was originally 1000w rms,now 1250w rms
www.eminence-speaker.com
Also new drivers such as the Neo,Magnum.
The Neo series use Neodyium magnets of 9 0z,which is smaller and lighter,but much stronger than ceramic or Alnico types.
So if a speaker blew [lets say Eminence Beta 15],would the reconing shop still stock the 150w rms recone kit,otherwise reconing it with a 'new' 350w rms kit,would be fine for the speaker,but you would have to get a more powerfull amp, resulting in wasting more money,selling your other amp for peanuts.
So why can't Eminence produce the 'old' BETA series as well as the 'new' series.Because if you go for an Alpha 15 rated 200w rms now,100w rms before,the magnet is only a pathetic 25 oz,1.5 inch voice coil,instead of 2 inch,and limited x max than the Beta 15.
Advantages; handles more power for the same speaker at the same price.
Disadvantages; needs high wattage amp to drive them cleanly and unclipped.
So the conclusion is why the heck,Would Eminence Increase the wattage,but not increase the voice coil diametre,magnet size and weight.
The Eminence Beta 15 was originally 150w rms,now is 350w rms,Eminence kilomax 18 was originally 1000w rms,now 1250w rms
www.eminence-speaker.com
Also new drivers such as the Neo,Magnum.
The Neo series use Neodyium magnets of 9 0z,which is smaller and lighter,but much stronger than ceramic or Alnico types.
So if a speaker blew [lets say Eminence Beta 15],would the reconing shop still stock the 150w rms recone kit,otherwise reconing it with a 'new' 350w rms kit,would be fine for the speaker,but you would have to get a more powerfull amp, resulting in wasting more money,selling your other amp for peanuts.
So why can't Eminence produce the 'old' BETA series as well as the 'new' series.Because if you go for an Alpha 15 rated 200w rms now,100w rms before,the magnet is only a pathetic 25 oz,1.5 inch voice coil,instead of 2 inch,and limited x max than the Beta 15.
Bull:
Do you have any specs that show that the "new" Eminence is less sensitive than the "old" Eminence? If it is not less sensitive, then there is no evidence that you must buy a more powerful amp.
Do you have the Thiele-Small parameters for the "old" Eminence as opposed to the "new"? I can check the midrange sensitivity by those numbers-there is formula that several programs use.
The WinISD database lists two Eminence Beta 15's, one capitalized, but the Thiele-Small parameters are identical-except one accidentally had "diameter" listed as 12 inch.
Incidentally, a quick check on the Eminence website shows a discrepancy. The graph shows the midrange sensitivity as being 90 dB. However, when you click on the "about sensitivity" button, it lists the Beta-15's sensitivity, (in the midrange and midbass), as 94 dB.
On the other hand, the graph shows the sensitivity at 2000 Hz as being 100 dB, while the table lists it as 104 dB. For some reason, the sensitivity data table shows 4 dB higher for all frequencies than the graph. Hmm.
I can only tell you that Eminence, at least up to now, was a very respected brand.
Incidentally, have you tried stuffing the 4 holes shut in your PA cabinet? If so, how did it work out?
Do you have any specs that show that the "new" Eminence is less sensitive than the "old" Eminence? If it is not less sensitive, then there is no evidence that you must buy a more powerful amp.
Do you have the Thiele-Small parameters for the "old" Eminence as opposed to the "new"? I can check the midrange sensitivity by those numbers-there is formula that several programs use.
The WinISD database lists two Eminence Beta 15's, one capitalized, but the Thiele-Small parameters are identical-except one accidentally had "diameter" listed as 12 inch.
Incidentally, a quick check on the Eminence website shows a discrepancy. The graph shows the midrange sensitivity as being 90 dB. However, when you click on the "about sensitivity" button, it lists the Beta-15's sensitivity, (in the midrange and midbass), as 94 dB.
On the other hand, the graph shows the sensitivity at 2000 Hz as being 100 dB, while the table lists it as 104 dB. For some reason, the sensitivity data table shows 4 dB higher for all frequencies than the graph. Hmm.
I can only tell you that Eminence, at least up to now, was a very respected brand.
Incidentally, have you tried stuffing the 4 holes shut in your PA cabinet? If so, how did it work out?
It's just to make the speaker more rugged. So they are able to survive bigger overload and working at higher temp.
The "power increase" issue was recently covered on the Bass List. Here's what Jerry McNutt (an engineer at Eminence) said about it:
"Hello,
We just changed the way we spec the sensitivity on the drivers; the Kilomax is the same as it used to be in every way. See the chart in our catalog that gives specific SPL data vs. frequency as it really tells the true story and it explains our view on SPL ratings.
We bought new amps for our power test room and spent about 6 months re-testing all of our catalog items. We used to find the weakest driver in a family and rate the entire family at the same power rating. For example, in the Alpha family, the Alpha 8MR could only take 100 watts using the EIA426A guidelines, so the whole Alpha family got rated at 100 watts.
Under our new testing guidelines, we were told to rate each driver according to what it would pass using the EIA426A guidelines. Along the way we tweaked a few designs (extended some cores, added BeCu Ribbon Leads, and/or changed dust caps) to get even higher power ratings and improve the overall performance of the drivers. We got the power test room up to 113 degrees F a few times running 3 Kilomax drivers at full tilt!
In the case of the Kilomax drivers, we simply never had an amp big enough to fully test them. Using the EIA426A guidelines, the amp must have 4 times the power rating of the level you are testing at because the test signal has a 6 dB crest factor. So, if you were testing at 100 watts, your amp must be rated for at least 400 watts. Well, we went out and bought 3 QSC
PL9.0pfc amps that are rated at 6800 watts into an 8 ohm load. This allowed us to test the Kilo's at 1250 watts and beyond. They passed.
Thanks,
McJerry"
To see all the messages in the thread, look in the Bass List archives at:
http://diyspeakers.net/pipermail/diyspeakers/
(search around late Sept and early Oct timeframe).
Nice one,
David.
"Hello,
We just changed the way we spec the sensitivity on the drivers; the Kilomax is the same as it used to be in every way. See the chart in our catalog that gives specific SPL data vs. frequency as it really tells the true story and it explains our view on SPL ratings.
We bought new amps for our power test room and spent about 6 months re-testing all of our catalog items. We used to find the weakest driver in a family and rate the entire family at the same power rating. For example, in the Alpha family, the Alpha 8MR could only take 100 watts using the EIA426A guidelines, so the whole Alpha family got rated at 100 watts.
Under our new testing guidelines, we were told to rate each driver according to what it would pass using the EIA426A guidelines. Along the way we tweaked a few designs (extended some cores, added BeCu Ribbon Leads, and/or changed dust caps) to get even higher power ratings and improve the overall performance of the drivers. We got the power test room up to 113 degrees F a few times running 3 Kilomax drivers at full tilt!
In the case of the Kilomax drivers, we simply never had an amp big enough to fully test them. Using the EIA426A guidelines, the amp must have 4 times the power rating of the level you are testing at because the test signal has a 6 dB crest factor. So, if you were testing at 100 watts, your amp must be rated for at least 400 watts. Well, we went out and bought 3 QSC
PL9.0pfc amps that are rated at 6800 watts into an 8 ohm load. This allowed us to test the Kilo's at 1250 watts and beyond. They passed.
Thanks,
McJerry"
To see all the messages in the thread, look in the Bass List archives at:
http://diyspeakers.net/pipermail/diyspeakers/
(search around late Sept and early Oct timeframe).
Nice one,
David.
confusion about Eminence??
Yep,
I've also noticed, that they made a pretty nasty change. 😱
But one thing that puzzles me is, that they don't mention it on their page (at least I didn't find any comment on the changes).
And how the hell can I figure out, which model has been upgraded, and which one has a higher power rating only because of the new guidelines? 😕
Besides from that, I'm a veeery content customer of Eminence.
You get some good speakers with plenty o' power at reasonable prices. Actually, I'm planning to build 4 scoop bins using Eminence Kappa 15 and Kappa 15LF (check out this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6582). 😀
Yep,
I've also noticed, that they made a pretty nasty change. 😱
But one thing that puzzles me is, that they don't mention it on their page (at least I didn't find any comment on the changes).
daatkins said:
And how the hell can I figure out, which model has been upgraded, and which one has a higher power rating only because of the new guidelines? 😕
Besides from that, I'm a veeery content customer of Eminence.
You get some good speakers with plenty o' power at reasonable prices. Actually, I'm planning to build 4 scoop bins using Eminence Kappa 15 and Kappa 15LF (check out this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6582). 😀
Reply to Keltec Wizard
Yes i did try stuffing all 4 vents with fibreglass wadding,which i had spare from the loft insulation which was recently re-newed.
I sounds much tighter and cleaner,but only one problem,it makes the driver more like hell,and i didn't want to push it too much,otherwise i was afraid the suspension and cone might tear.
So i guess the manufactor [AC EURO] model no. AC115, just put any driver in a box,without first checking the cabinet volume to see if it matches the air volume dissplacement of the speaker.
If i go for the option of selling the speakers,although i've only had them for six months.Is there any speaker with good repetition,relibity, which is well known to last,and sound good.
I dj in small clubs 6 metres long by 5 metres wide approx room size.I need a speaker which is able to cope with high volumes,and still sound good. Punchy,tight,chest crushing bass,
clear transparet midrange,especially on vocals,crystal clear,and sparkling treble,detail in sound effects.
I mix drum and bass,garage,reggae,dub,rn'b,hip hop. So i need speakers suited to a wide range of music,able to handle the bass,just as good as handling the mid and treble,not sounding muddy and harsh[tone] at high volumes.
Also maximum £1000 pair,because i'm a student,and i've only got a part time job.
I was thinking of maybe Mackie c300,or JBL Eon 15,both compact and portable,good for my djing needs.
What would other people choose when on a budget,The JBL EON 15,Mackie c300 or a completly different product that i don't know of.
Please give me your opinion,and advice.
P.s. I thought of the nickname 'Bull',because a bull is my favourite animal,because of it's rage.
Yes i did try stuffing all 4 vents with fibreglass wadding,which i had spare from the loft insulation which was recently re-newed.
I sounds much tighter and cleaner,but only one problem,it makes the driver more like hell,and i didn't want to push it too much,otherwise i was afraid the suspension and cone might tear.
So i guess the manufactor [AC EURO] model no. AC115, just put any driver in a box,without first checking the cabinet volume to see if it matches the air volume dissplacement of the speaker.
If i go for the option of selling the speakers,although i've only had them for six months.Is there any speaker with good repetition,relibity, which is well known to last,and sound good.
I dj in small clubs 6 metres long by 5 metres wide approx room size.I need a speaker which is able to cope with high volumes,and still sound good. Punchy,tight,chest crushing bass,
clear transparet midrange,especially on vocals,crystal clear,and sparkling treble,detail in sound effects.
I mix drum and bass,garage,reggae,dub,rn'b,hip hop. So i need speakers suited to a wide range of music,able to handle the bass,just as good as handling the mid and treble,not sounding muddy and harsh[tone] at high volumes.
Also maximum £1000 pair,because i'm a student,and i've only got a part time job.
I was thinking of maybe Mackie c300,or JBL Eon 15,both compact and portable,good for my djing needs.
What would other people choose when on a budget,The JBL EON 15,Mackie c300 or a completly different product that i don't know of.
Please give me your opinion,and advice.
P.s. I thought of the nickname 'Bull',because a bull is my favourite animal,because of it's rage.
How 'bout this?????
Hey Bull,
I know you're on a limited budget, but I think if you have already considered some active speakers (JBL Eon), you should have a look at Mackie's SRM 450. THey're about 900 EUR each (btw, IIRC, the c300 is the passive version of the SRM 450)
The price is of course higher than that of the old Eon 15 (JBL has launched a new Eon Line, Eon G2), but the SRM has a far higher power handling (300 Watts for bass, 100 for Mid/Hi).
And think about the other advantages: you won't have to drag around a seperate amp and boxes, you just set up your speakers, connect them to your mixer, and there you go.....
Besides from that, they can also be used as monitors etc.
I've also used the SRM's a few times (a friend has a pair of them.......the lucky bastard
), and to put it the short way:
1. They're durable
2. They blow away your ears
3. They sound nice (OK, there's already been some comments on how "nice" PA- speakers sound 😀 )
Of course you don't get earth- quakin' monster bass out of them, because they're only equipped with a 12" woofer, but I think that in smaller venues like where you normally dj, they'll just work fine (and outperform the Eon15, because of the higher power handling). And when you have saved up more money, you can later on buy the recommended Mackie subwoofer (the SRS 1500, also active!).
greets,
bob
Hey Bull,
I know you're on a limited budget, but I think if you have already considered some active speakers (JBL Eon), you should have a look at Mackie's SRM 450. THey're about 900 EUR each (btw, IIRC, the c300 is the passive version of the SRM 450)
The price is of course higher than that of the old Eon 15 (JBL has launched a new Eon Line, Eon G2), but the SRM has a far higher power handling (300 Watts for bass, 100 for Mid/Hi).
And think about the other advantages: you won't have to drag around a seperate amp and boxes, you just set up your speakers, connect them to your mixer, and there you go.....
Besides from that, they can also be used as monitors etc.
I've also used the SRM's a few times (a friend has a pair of them.......the lucky bastard
), and to put it the short way:1. They're durable
2. They blow away your ears
3. They sound nice (OK, there's already been some comments on how "nice" PA- speakers sound 😀 )
Of course you don't get earth- quakin' monster bass out of them, because they're only equipped with a 12" woofer, but I think that in smaller venues like where you normally dj, they'll just work fine (and outperform the Eon15, because of the higher power handling). And when you have saved up more money, you can later on buy the recommended Mackie subwoofer (the SRS 1500, also active!).
greets,
bob
search for a good-sounding, well-known to last speaker
I should also mention the HK Audio PR 115X, a passive fullrange box.
http://www.hk-audio.com/
It costs about 450 EUR each, 300 Watts RMS power handling, 15" woofer, 1" driver, multi- purpose cab (also suited for monitoring).
These babys rock, and they don't get wasted if you push them a bit beyond their limits. Along with a powerful amp (a friend of mine drives 'em with a Crest CA6 amp, 2 x 400W RMS@ 8Ohm), they would work just fine for your DJ gigs .
Bull said:
I should also mention the HK Audio PR 115X, a passive fullrange box.
http://www.hk-audio.com/
It costs about 450 EUR each, 300 Watts RMS power handling, 15" woofer, 1" driver, multi- purpose cab (also suited for monitoring).
These babys rock, and they don't get wasted if you push them a bit beyond their limits. Along with a powerful amp (a friend of mine drives 'em with a Crest CA6 amp, 2 x 400W RMS@ 8Ohm), they would work just fine for your DJ gigs .
Bull, as you're in London, check out my mate Tim's website, or give him a call, he may have something secound hand that might work for you
http://www.crystalpro.demon.co.uk/
http://www.crystalpro.demon.co.uk/
Quote Bull:
Yes i did try stuffing all 4 vents with fibreglass wadding,which i had spare from the loft insulation which was recently re-newed.
It sounds much tighter and cleaner,but only one problem,it makes the driver move like hell,and i didn't want to push it too much,otherwise i was afraid the suspension and cone might tear.
You are afraid you are going to damage the Eminence Beta 15 by overdriving it in your Euro 2.1 cu ft sealed enclosure?
Not going to happen, Bull. In a 2.1 cu ft box, the Eminence Beta 15 is 3 dB down from the midpoint at 65 Hz. Your midpoint is 94 dB, so at your point of greatest movement, 65 Hz, your are playing at 91 dB.
With a 150 watt input, (your max into 8 ohms), you can drive the Eminence to 113 dB at 65 Hz.
113 dB at 65 Hz requires about 300 cc of air to be moved. See the chart I posted-the second chart is metric-here:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5668&highlight=spl+chart The chart is direct from the Journal Of The Audio engineering Society, in an article written by Richard small of Thiele-Small fame.
How much air can the Eminence move? Well, the Eminence's air moving capability is it's cone area times it's excursion.
According to the Eminence website, the linear excursion is 4 mm. However, the Mechanical Excursion-how far the speaker can actually be driven without damage-is 23 mm, or 2.3 cm.
I have to check with Eminence to see if that excursion number is for 1-way movement or 2-way movement. If the Worst Case Scenario occurs and it is for 2 way movement, we will have to cut that figure in half, (I will check with Eminence to see if we have to cut actually do this). If we cut the figure in half, then our excursion is 1.2 cm, approximately.
The cone area, according to Eminence, is 823 sq cm. For the Eminence to move 300 cc of air-the most your amp can drive it to-the Beta 15 only has to move 2.74 cm.
That means the Eminence barely has to move out of it's linear range, and is in no danger of even coming close to the Mechanical Excursion limit of 11 cm!
About the only problem you might have is that the sealed system, by requiring the cone to move more than the bass reflex, might muddy the midrange somewhat. That will be up to you to decide. But you are in no danger of damaging the speaker by exceeding it's mechanical limits. You are not even close.
If the sound of the Euro now pleases you, keep it. I still think we have to do some work around 2000 Hz, but first things first. There is no reason to get rid of your Euro, with the ports sealed, unless you simply don't like the sound.
Yes i did try stuffing all 4 vents with fibreglass wadding,which i had spare from the loft insulation which was recently re-newed.
It sounds much tighter and cleaner,but only one problem,it makes the driver move like hell,and i didn't want to push it too much,otherwise i was afraid the suspension and cone might tear.
You are afraid you are going to damage the Eminence Beta 15 by overdriving it in your Euro 2.1 cu ft sealed enclosure?
Not going to happen, Bull. In a 2.1 cu ft box, the Eminence Beta 15 is 3 dB down from the midpoint at 65 Hz. Your midpoint is 94 dB, so at your point of greatest movement, 65 Hz, your are playing at 91 dB.
With a 150 watt input, (your max into 8 ohms), you can drive the Eminence to 113 dB at 65 Hz.
113 dB at 65 Hz requires about 300 cc of air to be moved. See the chart I posted-the second chart is metric-here:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5668&highlight=spl+chart The chart is direct from the Journal Of The Audio engineering Society, in an article written by Richard small of Thiele-Small fame.
How much air can the Eminence move? Well, the Eminence's air moving capability is it's cone area times it's excursion.
According to the Eminence website, the linear excursion is 4 mm. However, the Mechanical Excursion-how far the speaker can actually be driven without damage-is 23 mm, or 2.3 cm.
I have to check with Eminence to see if that excursion number is for 1-way movement or 2-way movement. If the Worst Case Scenario occurs and it is for 2 way movement, we will have to cut that figure in half, (I will check with Eminence to see if we have to cut actually do this). If we cut the figure in half, then our excursion is 1.2 cm, approximately.
The cone area, according to Eminence, is 823 sq cm. For the Eminence to move 300 cc of air-the most your amp can drive it to-the Beta 15 only has to move 2.74 cm.
That means the Eminence barely has to move out of it's linear range, and is in no danger of even coming close to the Mechanical Excursion limit of 11 cm!
About the only problem you might have is that the sealed system, by requiring the cone to move more than the bass reflex, might muddy the midrange somewhat. That will be up to you to decide. But you are in no danger of damaging the speaker by exceeding it's mechanical limits. You are not even close.
If the sound of the Euro now pleases you, keep it. I still think we have to do some work around 2000 Hz, but first things first. There is no reason to get rid of your Euro, with the ports sealed, unless you simply don't like the sound.
Sealing the vents of the Euro shut-thereby making it a closed system-actually is a very good move.
Three cubic feet-as opposed to your 2.1 cu ft-is a very popular size for DJ cabinets. Here is what your 2 cu ft sealed cabinet looks like against a 3 cubic foot ported cabinet.
The 2.1 cu ft sealed cabinet is in red.
The 3 cubic ft ported cabinet is in green.
See how little difference there is? By sealing the cabinet, it just so happens that you come very close to the performance of a ported cabinet 50% larger!
Usually ported cabs give deeper bass, but not in this case.
The only issue left is the fact that the greater movement the sealed cabinet requires might muddy the midrange somewhat. That is a debate going on among audio fans-many claim that the difference is not hearable. It is up to you to decide.
I am not trying to convince you to keep the Euros, only pointing out that by sealing the vents shut, you might actually have gotten the bargain you hoped for when you bought them. Of ocurse, if you simply don't like the sound, by all means get rid of them.
Three cubic feet-as opposed to your 2.1 cu ft-is a very popular size for DJ cabinets. Here is what your 2 cu ft sealed cabinet looks like against a 3 cubic foot ported cabinet.
The 2.1 cu ft sealed cabinet is in red.
The 3 cubic ft ported cabinet is in green.
See how little difference there is? By sealing the cabinet, it just so happens that you come very close to the performance of a ported cabinet 50% larger!
Usually ported cabs give deeper bass, but not in this case.
The only issue left is the fact that the greater movement the sealed cabinet requires might muddy the midrange somewhat. That is a debate going on among audio fans-many claim that the difference is not hearable. It is up to you to decide.
I am not trying to convince you to keep the Euros, only pointing out that by sealing the vents shut, you might actually have gotten the bargain you hoped for when you bought them. Of ocurse, if you simply don't like the sound, by all means get rid of them.
Attachments
Re: Reply to Keltec Wizard
A sealed system will always make the cone move more, because the cone provides all the bass output in a sealed system. In a ported system, the vent provides most of the deep bass.
However, I shall show you the Eminence Beta 15 can easily work in your cabinet sealed and there should be no problem with excessive cone excursion.
The Eminence Beta 15 you have has a linear excursion of 4 mm and a mechanically limited excursion of 23mm-almost a full inch.
I just called Eminence about another matter, and asked about their excursion ratings. Those ratings are for both directions. In other words, going from front to back, the Eminence Beta 15 has 8 mm linear travel and virtually two full inches mechanically limited travel.
What you want in your speaker is up to you, of course, but it is unlikely that you could push this unit past it's mechanical limits with your cabinet sealed.
In the following thread is listed the volumes of air a sealed speaker must move to produce certains SPL's at various frequencies. The lowest frequiency your speaker will reproduce is 60 Hz. It helps to hit F11 when reading this chart.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5668&highlight=Displacement+SPL
The Eminence has a cone area of 132 sq inches. With a one inch mechanical excursion limit, it can move 132 cubic inches of air.
132 sq inched for 60 Hz produces an SPL that is so high, it is literally off the chart!! However, one quarter of the Volume Displacement, (32 cubic inches) produces a whopping 117 dB SPL at 60 Hz. That is about the limit of your 150 watt into the Eminence. And the Eminence still has 3/4 of it's voice coil to go before you chance damage!!
Again, it is your speaker, do what you wish. But if cone excursion was preventing you from this box as a sealed system, you now know that there should be nothing to worry about.
Bull said:
A sealed system will always make the cone move more, because the cone provides all the bass output in a sealed system. In a ported system, the vent provides most of the deep bass.
However, I shall show you the Eminence Beta 15 can easily work in your cabinet sealed and there should be no problem with excessive cone excursion.
The Eminence Beta 15 you have has a linear excursion of 4 mm and a mechanically limited excursion of 23mm-almost a full inch.
I just called Eminence about another matter, and asked about their excursion ratings. Those ratings are for both directions. In other words, going from front to back, the Eminence Beta 15 has 8 mm linear travel and virtually two full inches mechanically limited travel.
What you want in your speaker is up to you, of course, but it is unlikely that you could push this unit past it's mechanical limits with your cabinet sealed.
In the following thread is listed the volumes of air a sealed speaker must move to produce certains SPL's at various frequencies. The lowest frequiency your speaker will reproduce is 60 Hz. It helps to hit F11 when reading this chart.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5668&highlight=Displacement+SPL
The Eminence has a cone area of 132 sq inches. With a one inch mechanical excursion limit, it can move 132 cubic inches of air.
132 sq inched for 60 Hz produces an SPL that is so high, it is literally off the chart!! However, one quarter of the Volume Displacement, (32 cubic inches) produces a whopping 117 dB SPL at 60 Hz. That is about the limit of your 150 watt into the Eminence. And the Eminence still has 3/4 of it's voice coil to go before you chance damage!!
Again, it is your speaker, do what you wish. But if cone excursion was preventing you from this box as a sealed system, you now know that there should be nothing to worry about.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.