Anyone got any experience of these drivers? Starting to think about the next upgrade to my PA system. The aim is to replace my tops with something better than the current 15" Fane full range drivers (these arent bad btw, but ideally Id like something a little sweeter sounding and with higher power handling). So I'm currently 2 way but looking to go 3 way.
The frequency response of the 10" Kappa doesnt look quite as flat as something like the 8" Beyma 8MC500ND, but I guess any driver / enclosure will need some EQing to sound flat.
At 100 quid each they seem quite good value, and the 500 RMS power rating is probably about right to keep up with 2k Subs on full chat (per side). The beyma drivers are quite a bit more money but would it be worth spending that bit more on those if they are just better drivers (flatter, more robust / take more abuse etc)?
The frequency response of the 10" Kappa doesnt look quite as flat as something like the 8" Beyma 8MC500ND, but I guess any driver / enclosure will need some EQing to sound flat.
At 100 quid each they seem quite good value, and the 500 RMS power rating is probably about right to keep up with 2k Subs on full chat (per side). The beyma drivers are quite a bit more money but would it be worth spending that bit more on those if they are just better drivers (flatter, more robust / take more abuse etc)?
2k on subs means 1k on bass, 500 mid range and 250 tops.
That is how our ears work.
They are good speakers if used within their range, nice mid range.
That is how our ears work.
They are good speakers if used within their range, nice mid range.
I was always thought it was a 3rd in power reduction so 900, 300, 100 L/M/T respectively. I more or less have this at the moment 1k sub, 300 mids and up per side (Ill be doubling the sub at some point hence needs more mid / top power) and whilst the balance is perhaps just a touch bass heavy its OK for my application (bass heavy dance ). The extra headroom in the subs is good to have since they take the most abuse with the variance in bass levels in modern dance.
Good to hear the midrange is nice as that's exactly what I'm after. The Fanes are dynamic but a little cold sounding, although I've yet to have a crack at profiling them in their enclosures using an RTA mic (which turned up today) and fiddling with the DSP.
Good to hear the midrange is nice as that's exactly what I'm after. The Fanes are dynamic but a little cold sounding, although I've yet to have a crack at profiling them in their enclosures using an RTA mic (which turned up today) and fiddling with the DSP.
So you're going to replace those 15" fullrange drivers with a 10+1 box or are you thinking a dual 10+1? I think you will find low/mid output is weak with a single 10.
As for power handling capacity, my big PA system(dual 18/dual 15/2" CD) is powered with 2000/750/350w but the only band that uses all that power is the subs, part of that is driver sensitivity but it's also the fact that current popular music genres have a hugh bass boost engineered in.
As for power handling capacity, my big PA system(dual 18/dual 15/2" CD) is powered with 2000/750/350w but the only band that uses all that power is the subs, part of that is driver sensitivity but it's also the fact that current popular music genres have a hugh bass boost engineered in.
Yes, that's correct. The 'each half than below' rule was from the 70s and 80s, modern music got a much different spread in spectrum.
They don't sound cold at all if you got the right settings. They need EQing and, because of how the dispersion pattern, an auto-EQ won't work for such speakers.
That's right. 10" got a cone surface of ~350cm², a 15" got ~850cm². Even a dual 10" will probably still not satisfy if you want a warm, rich low mids range.
Yes, I can only confirm that. Outdoors it's even worse, depending on the music genre, you'd have to use 4-8 per side.
Yes I need to muck about more with the fanes. There is already a fair bit of EQ dialed in based on a measured frequency response of the driver, but they might be behaving differently in these cabinets. Although, its not far off what someone else posted not long ago for the same driver. I've got an RTA mic now so I can do some analysis and hopefully make some more corrections. But, the main issue with them is lack of power once I double the subs. They are currently working fairly hard to keep up with the 1k sub on full chat each side.
Currently Ive got the Xover point set at 110Hz (the subs are faital pro 15", 1000 watt rms drivers). It was set at 90 originally, but I felt the system lacked a bit of punch when reproducing more mid-bass laden kick drums (house, as opposed to the deeper kickdrums used minimal / tech which the subs handle pretty well). Shifting that up to 110hz fixed that and didnt compromise the tone to my ears.
I will most likely end up running dual 10s. I'd rather drive the subs hard but keep the mids well within their capability in order to keep the sound clean, tight and dynamic. Nothing worse than over driven midrange. The 10s Ive looked at so far all seem to start dropping off just above 100hz so I reckon they will naturally be a good fit.
Currently Ive got the Xover point set at 110Hz (the subs are faital pro 15", 1000 watt rms drivers). It was set at 90 originally, but I felt the system lacked a bit of punch when reproducing more mid-bass laden kick drums (house, as opposed to the deeper kickdrums used minimal / tech which the subs handle pretty well). Shifting that up to 110hz fixed that and didnt compromise the tone to my ears.
I will most likely end up running dual 10s. I'd rather drive the subs hard but keep the mids well within their capability in order to keep the sound clean, tight and dynamic. Nothing worse than over driven midrange. The 10s Ive looked at so far all seem to start dropping off just above 100hz so I reckon they will naturally be a good fit.
I bet you are hearing some doppler distortion at higher drive levels, this would be the achilles heel of fullrange drivers, it's just not possible to cover that much spectrum with a single driver at high spls.
When I first tried the drivers out delivering the complete full range I certainly heard that on the hihats when a 45hz kickdrum was also pumping out. I didnt know it was called doppler distortion. The kind of buffetting effect on the top end was very much audible and made me think "well thats a bit cr@p".
I havent noticed the same issue since running them as tops only, but its probably there to an extent on drum transients but far less obvious without the sustained bass notes. I could solve this by going three way and using the tweeters that are still present in the peavey pro 15 cabs Ive put the fanes in. But when testing the peavey speakers out before modifying them I thought they sounded fairly pants. The full range Fane was a lot better after a bit of EQ (minus the doppler bit).
I havent noticed the same issue since running them as tops only, but its probably there to an extent on drum transients but far less obvious without the sustained bass notes. I could solve this by going three way and using the tweeters that are still present in the peavey pro 15 cabs Ive put the fanes in. But when testing the peavey speakers out before modifying them I thought they sounded fairly pants. The full range Fane was a lot better after a bit of EQ (minus the doppler bit).
Hmmm...
What crossover slopes are you using at the moment? A reasonably steep slope at 110Hz should keep cone excursion well in check until you get to really silly power levels.
Are the amps running the Fanes clipping?
Before spending money, get what you can out of the measurement mic.
Now they're in different cabinets to the ones I measured them in, there will definitely be room for improvement with EQ.
Might also be worth checking out acoustical treatments for the cabinets - some bracing and lining can really help clean up the sound.
Chris
Edit - FWIW, the 2x Faital Pro 10FH520/side that I use keep up with 4x subs a side, depending on program material.
What crossover slopes are you using at the moment? A reasonably steep slope at 110Hz should keep cone excursion well in check until you get to really silly power levels.
Are the amps running the Fanes clipping?
Before spending money, get what you can out of the measurement mic.
Now they're in different cabinets to the ones I measured them in, there will definitely be room for improvement with EQ.
Might also be worth checking out acoustical treatments for the cabinets - some bracing and lining can really help clean up the sound.
Chris
Edit - FWIW, the 2x Faital Pro 10FH520/side that I use keep up with 4x subs a side, depending on program material.
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24db slope.
The sub amp was maxing out before the one running the tops did. It definitely wasnt clipping.
I braced and sound treated the cabinets before I put the Fanes in. I think you are right though some more EQing may be required as the characteristics will probably have changed.
Also, battling against terrible room acoustics! Getting an accurate measure will be fun, probably involve building a tunnel out of mattresses and duvets, and getting very hot inside it.
You can't measure a speaker indoors... well you sorta can with gated measurements but that is a more advanced technique, you need to get the speakers outdoors and away from buildings then you will see what the raw response looks like. With that measurement in hand you can then take indoor measurements, the difference between the 2 will be the room effects for which you could build a correction file.
And I can't believe you aren't missing everything from about 6-8khz and up with those 15's, no way you get any real topend out of them. And even if you can get 10-12khz it will only be directly on axis you're not getting any of that 45deg off. Now that you have a measurement mic get yourself a copy of REW and plug those compression drivers in, if you can make a 15" sound decent then you can also dial in a CD.
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If I recall there is actually a narrow but fairly heafty cut at 7khz dialled in. You are right about off axis on the top end though.
Lets see. Unfortunately its going to be difficult measuring away from buildings where I live and having access to power. My garden is fairly small and surrounded by walls / wooden fencing that likes to reverberate. An acoustic mattress tunnel might be the only way (and keep the level down)
Lets see. Unfortunately its going to be difficult measuring away from buildings where I live and having access to power. My garden is fairly small and surrounded by walls / wooden fencing that likes to reverberate. An acoustic mattress tunnel might be the only way (and keep the level down)
Prepare to be surprised. IIRC they got to about 14kHz before dropping off quite quickly. The VHF stuff comes off a small whizzer cone in the middle - the cone itself is probably only 1/2" long.
I didn't test what they did off-axis, but I'd expect some drop off.
Just a thought - there's a trick for full-range drivers with whizzer cones, where you put a bit of foam between the whizzer and the main cone. The idea being to add a little edge damping to the whizzer. Might clean up the treble a bit.
I still think it's worth making sure the 15" Fanes are doing everything they can before moving on to something else.
Chris
Actually I have a set of 8" fullrange drivers with a whizzer cone and they do sound really good overall.. very natural with little EQ necessary but.. even these smaller drivers don't have much real topend, I have them paired with a horn loaded super tweeter crossed passively at 5khz(12db/oct) and that makes all the difference... they sound proper hi-fi.
Well.. sometimes you have to work with what you got.. I fully understand that. The open space measurement is instructive that is why I suggested doing it that way, once you see it even once you will then understand how your "home test room" affects speakers response with all its reflections and nodes. If you happen to have time to do a sweep on one of the speakers before an event in a big room like a school gymnasium that works too, put the speaker in the center of the room and run a quick test at lower SPL with the test mic 1m away, that is a good second best to outdoors.
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