I have been looking at the new Dayton Audio PS65LP and it might make a good mid driver for a horn.
Hornresp appears to show the driver working well in a front loaded horn, as I model various ideas.
I am planing to experiment with Dr. Bruce Edgar's "Edgar Midrange Horn" (from speaker builder magazine) and see how the driver goes in this horn first as its a proven design. Then maybe a longer exponential flare...
Is there any real world problem with horn loading a 4 ohm driver?
I believe The diameter of the speaker will limit its ability to produce high frequencies effectively when horn loaded, I'm assuming this roll off will begin from 2k upwards. As the PS65LP is essentially a full range driver, Im hoping to have a horn that will get to 5k nicely with out too much beaming.
Are there a couple of real world examples or other builders that have used the Edgar Midrange horn up to 5k?
Hopefully a few people can shed some light on this idea and justify me buying a couple of these drivers and giving them a go.
Cheers,
Tim
Hornresp appears to show the driver working well in a front loaded horn, as I model various ideas.
I am planing to experiment with Dr. Bruce Edgar's "Edgar Midrange Horn" (from speaker builder magazine) and see how the driver goes in this horn first as its a proven design. Then maybe a longer exponential flare...
Is there any real world problem with horn loading a 4 ohm driver?
I believe The diameter of the speaker will limit its ability to produce high frequencies effectively when horn loaded, I'm assuming this roll off will begin from 2k upwards. As the PS65LP is essentially a full range driver, Im hoping to have a horn that will get to 5k nicely with out too much beaming.
Are there a couple of real world examples or other builders that have used the Edgar Midrange horn up to 5k?
Hopefully a few people can shed some light on this idea and justify me buying a couple of these drivers and giving them a go.
Cheers,
Tim
yes !
You know, I had the same exact idea when i first saw this driver -- it's begging for a horn.
A 4 ohm driver is no issue, but whether or not it can reach 5 K is another question. You really won't know until you try. IMO this is a great case to use a larger style throat.
You know, I had the same exact idea when i first saw this driver -- it's begging for a horn.
A 4 ohm driver is no issue, but whether or not it can reach 5 K is another question. You really won't know until you try. IMO this is a great case to use a larger style throat.
Xrk has done it with the PRV 5mr450-ndy with great success.
www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk
www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
Sent from my X9009 using Tapatalk
PRV 5mr450-ndy is not a bad choice at all, thanks for the pointer rhapsodee.
One thing I neglected to mention was the primary use would be for Hi Fi and not at crazy levels but... As someone who works in live sound I've been looking for a nice wide range mid that will enable me to run a 1" comp driver from 5k upwards. I might shoehorn one into a EDM PA system for a laugh/test.
You could say I'm another audio nut trying to find the holy grail of crossover points outside of the vocals... I blame all the turbo sound PA's I had to use early on in my career.
Now crunching the numbers on paper; the Dayton PS65LP will conservatively max out around 114 @32w, the PRV 5MR450 at around 118db @256W
I'd say the 5MR450 will have it for ruggedness and overall output but you need a lot of power to get there.
Im leading toward the Dayton PS65LP, it has more xmas, very efficient and a lower FS, and similar max output.
I wonder how the PS65LP will cope if I use the 25cm2 horn throat specified in the original plans, Hornresp shows it working well. but this will be quiet a high compression ratio. The phase plug also makes me question how this will work shooting into such a small aperture.
One thought I have is that the speakers cone appears rather flat compared to most others, to me this looks like a good loudspeaker trait for horn loading, Thoughts?
Time to build some horns, then test 🙂
One thing I neglected to mention was the primary use would be for Hi Fi and not at crazy levels but... As someone who works in live sound I've been looking for a nice wide range mid that will enable me to run a 1" comp driver from 5k upwards. I might shoehorn one into a EDM PA system for a laugh/test.
You could say I'm another audio nut trying to find the holy grail of crossover points outside of the vocals... I blame all the turbo sound PA's I had to use early on in my career.
Now crunching the numbers on paper; the Dayton PS65LP will conservatively max out around 114 @32w, the PRV 5MR450 at around 118db @256W
I'd say the 5MR450 will have it for ruggedness and overall output but you need a lot of power to get there.
Im leading toward the Dayton PS65LP, it has more xmas, very efficient and a lower FS, and similar max output.
I wonder how the PS65LP will cope if I use the 25cm2 horn throat specified in the original plans, Hornresp shows it working well. but this will be quiet a high compression ratio. The phase plug also makes me question how this will work shooting into such a small aperture.
One thought I have is that the speakers cone appears rather flat compared to most others, to me this looks like a good loudspeaker trait for horn loading, Thoughts?
Time to build some horns, then test 🙂
The edgar horn only loads down to 400 Hz, A large format compression driver will eat that wide range driver for lunch
It takes some surgery, but the Dayton RS52 is a spectacular driver for a midrange horn.
Bruce Edgar tried a bunch of different drivers and found the best midrange driver for a horn was a Dynaudio soft dome. IMHO the Dayton shares a lot of it's positive attributes, but has some other ones as well:
3) it's cheaper
2) the Dayton has a shorting ring and the Dynaudio doesn't
1) IMHO, an aluminum dome is better suited to horn loading than a silk dome. It's less prone to deformation.
But, again, you'll have to saw it in half and make a back chamber for it 🙁
Here's a pic of mine, that I sawed in half
If you're interested in going this route, I can go and measure the thiele small of one of these with a reduced back chamber. IIRC, the Fb comes in around 600Hz, which means that it's suitable for a front loaded horn with an F3 of about 400-500Hz. It's true that there are some dome tweeters and compression drivers that can also meet these requirements. The advantage of the RS52 is that it has more displacement than either of those options, which makes it suitable for a low crossover. It also has a much lower QTS than you'll find in competing options.
Bruce Edgar tried a bunch of different drivers and found the best midrange driver for a horn was a Dynaudio soft dome. IMHO the Dayton shares a lot of it's positive attributes, but has some other ones as well:
3) it's cheaper
2) the Dayton has a shorting ring and the Dynaudio doesn't
1) IMHO, an aluminum dome is better suited to horn loading than a silk dome. It's less prone to deformation.
But, again, you'll have to saw it in half and make a back chamber for it 🙁
Here's a pic of mine, that I sawed in half
If you're interested in going this route, I can go and measure the thiele small of one of these with a reduced back chamber. IIRC, the Fb comes in around 600Hz, which means that it's suitable for a front loaded horn with an F3 of about 400-500Hz. It's true that there are some dome tweeters and compression drivers that can also meet these requirements. The advantage of the RS52 is that it has more displacement than either of those options, which makes it suitable for a low crossover. It also has a much lower QTS than you'll find in competing options.
I am looking to build a horn loaded mid cab as well. I am thinking a double front loaded horn may be the best design for my needs and planning to have it run from about 900hz to 6khz. What designs have proved to be a good fit for horn loading coned drivers in the mid range?
I was considering dome mid range but I really would like to get down to 300hz efficiently and at a sensible DIY price.
I'm aware of the many Pro Audio compression drivers and yep they will eat this project for lunch... This is not the goal for me on this project.
The dome mid is a nice idea, shame I had a couple of those drivers in the junk box for years but I gave them away.. ha.
If its not hard to get the T&S parameters for the cut down driver please do.
Tim
I'm aware of the many Pro Audio compression drivers and yep they will eat this project for lunch... This is not the goal for me on this project.
The dome mid is a nice idea, shame I had a couple of those drivers in the junk box for years but I gave them away.. ha.
If its not hard to get the T&S parameters for the cut down driver please do.
Tim
It takes some surgery, but the Dayton RS52 is a spectacular driver for a midrange horn.
Bruce Edgar tried a bunch of different drivers and found the best midrange driver for a horn was a Dynaudio soft dome. IMHO the Dayton shares a lot of it's positive attributes, but has some other ones as well:
3) it's cheaper
2) the Dayton has a shorting ring and the Dynaudio doesn't
1) IMHO, an aluminum dome is better suited to horn loading than a silk dome. It's less prone to deformation.
But, again, you'll have to saw it in half and make a back chamber for it 🙁
Here's a pic of mine, that I sawed in half
If you're interested in going this route, I can go and measure the thiele small of one of these with a reduced back chamber. IIRC, the Fb comes in around 600Hz, which means that it's suitable for a front loaded horn with an F3 of about 400-500Hz. It's true that there are some dome tweeters and compression drivers that can also meet these requirements. The advantage of the RS52 is that it has more displacement than either of those options, which makes it suitable for a low crossover. It also has a much lower QTS than you'll find in competing options.
A forum member asked me why it was necessary to saw my RS52 in half, to horn load it.
Here's why:
In it's default configuration, the RS52 has 1mm of xmax, a free air resonance of 340Hz, and a frequency response that looks like this:
If you reduce the volume of the back chamber, it does a few things:
1) it raises the FB
2) By raising the QTC, we get a 'bump' in the low end of the frequency range. This 'bump' raises the output by around 3-6dB.
3) By reducing the back chamber, power handling goes up a LOT. (Because the RS52 has very little xmax, just 1mm.)
So after we reduce the back chamber, we have a midrange that has a higher QTC, a higher FB, higher power handling, and higher output on the low end.
After we do all that, we put the RS52 on a horn.
Remember that, for the most part, the reason that a horn has more output on axis is because the energy is focused on axis. IE, instead of radiating into 180 degree or 360 degrees, it's radiating into an angle of somewhere around 90 degrees.
This means that we can get away with a much smaller than normal horn.
Basically the output of the low frequencies are augmented by the larger than normal back chamber. The output above there is augmented by the horn.
If you used the Dayton on a horn, with an unmodified back chamber, low frequency output would be less, low frequency power handling would be less, and ideally you'd need a much larger horn (because the Fb is much lower when the driver is "stock.")
The Dynaudio D54 dome midrange was the preferred dome in the Edgar midrange horn and was very impressive pretty certain if Dynaudio made a production run of 10000 it would sell out in no time . The output was astonishing louder than you could stand in a reasonable size room . The harrier jump jet takeoff played back on a system i had 25 years ago was close to live output i would scare people with the output . I sold the system due to new neighbors not appreciating live heavy metal concerts every second night . The lesson here is if you get a pair in good condition you will be blown away
I have tried quite a few drivers in my Edgars including several dome mids and compression drivers and even small cones.The Dynaudio D54 std is by far the best.
The Dynaudio D76 will also work with a spacer ring .The Dynaudio D52 not as good.I tried the Jaycar dome mid which looks to be the same as the Dayton and that was not very good.A friend tried the dome mid out of Yamaha NS1000s and that was not right either.
I suspect the d54 std works so well because it does not have a perfectly flat frequency response [it is more of a bump shape] and this just happens to be a perfect match for the horn.Plus its massive build and high sensitivity means it sounds very powerful and dynamic.
I have a single Dynaudio D54 std new in the box if anybody needs one.
I also have a spare pair of Dynaudio D76s with a suitable spacer ring.They have been doped with a resin which improved their sound in the horn.
The Dynaudio D76 will also work with a spacer ring .The Dynaudio D52 not as good.I tried the Jaycar dome mid which looks to be the same as the Dayton and that was not very good.A friend tried the dome mid out of Yamaha NS1000s and that was not right either.
I suspect the d54 std works so well because it does not have a perfectly flat frequency response [it is more of a bump shape] and this just happens to be a perfect match for the horn.Plus its massive build and high sensitivity means it sounds very powerful and dynamic.
I have a single Dynaudio D54 std new in the box if anybody needs one.
I also have a spare pair of Dynaudio D76s with a suitable spacer ring.They have been doped with a resin which improved their sound in the horn.
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If I'm not mistaken, that's "reactance annulling", described here :
FLH design basics for a dummy
In a post I made this morning, I described something similar using a Dayton dome.
And it is as you describe; basically if you "tweak" the QTC of the midrange, when combined with the horn, it will be flat.
If the QTC is too low, it will have a falling response which will sound "shouty." Basically there will be too much energy in the upper octaves, and power handling will be poor.
Are you the guy who has one new D54 on EBay for ages? If not then someone could get this and the one on EBay and have a set . Anyway I actually got in touch with the person who got my system with the D54 Edgar horns and after all this time he would never sell ,he is in the lucky position of having no neighbors within 20 miles! And still has his hearing !
Anybody remotely interested in dynamic unstressed midrange needs to try these . If you listen at 75db to 85db then I think there are better options but if you have a big space to fill and like it live 110db then this is it
No I have not advertised mine anywhere.I am in Western Australia.
I have another set mounted in my Edgar horns which I run open backed.Which I do prefer although the difference is not huge.
I have another set mounted in my Edgar horns which I run open backed.Which I do prefer although the difference is not huge.
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what's the approximate 2.83v spl and response of that Dayton on the horn? What size horn is opitimal? How does it compare with the tight back chamber on the low end for max output vs something like a K55V Klipsch driver ? IIRC Bruce said the added path reflections from using a cone driver such as LE5 added a bit of excitement vs the Dynaudio dome. Would that be termed HOM these days ?
Patrick Bateman: How did you saw the RS52 back chamber in half ? I've got a pair of Edgar midrange horns with JBL 104H-2 drivers on them. Would be interested in comparing the JBLs to the domes.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It's plastic. Hacksaw goes through it like butter.
I epoxied a piece of wood to the bottom to seal it back up.