I recently built a rather large three way stack comprised of (2x) tall VBSS 18" cabinets, and tops made of an 8" midrange driver and a DE250 on an ME20 horn with a very basic passive crossover. I'm very dissatisfied with the midrange - for a while I blamed the crossover, but lately I'm wondering if the driver selection isn't also a problem (8" being too small for this application). I took on more than I can handle - so I'm taking a mulligan and looking for a more fully-baked design.
This led me to exploring the Econowave concept, which seems to get rave reviews and fits what I'm shooting for - high sound quality and high efficiency. Based on what I read I can repurpose the DE250's (great), and I'm leaning towards a 12" version as these tops will have subs to go with them. Here's my main question:
In 2021, what horn's are available for an Econowave build? I see the Dayton clone of the (JBL?) version people used in the past is sold out, and in any case that needs an adapter for my DE250's which likely means adjusting the tested-and-proven XO's out there. The larger QSC waveguide doesn't appear available anymore. What other options do I have?
This led me to exploring the Econowave concept, which seems to get rave reviews and fits what I'm shooting for - high sound quality and high efficiency. Based on what I read I can repurpose the DE250's (great), and I'm leaning towards a 12" version as these tops will have subs to go with them. Here's my main question:
In 2021, what horn's are available for an Econowave build? I see the Dayton clone of the (JBL?) version people used in the past is sold out, and in any case that needs an adapter for my DE250's which likely means adjusting the tested-and-proven XO's out there. The larger QSC waveguide doesn't appear available anymore. What other options do I have?
Is this an actual PA system or a loud personal listening system?
18subs crossed to 8" mids at what frequency?
What are you processing this with?
You must have the 18 running up to 500hz or more do you?
You're missing the whole low-mid section, no way under any circumstances is a single 8" driver sufficient for a PA stack, it takes 3 or 4 of them on each side or add a 12" and make the tops 3-way, either way the tops have to be capable of some bass so they can be crossed to the sub at 80-100hz.
18subs crossed to 8" mids at what frequency?
What are you processing this with?
You must have the 18 running up to 500hz or more do you?
You're missing the whole low-mid section, no way under any circumstances is a single 8" driver sufficient for a PA stack, it takes 3 or 4 of them on each side or add a 12" and make the tops 3-way, either way the tops have to be capable of some bass so they can be crossed to the sub at 80-100hz.
Conanski - all of what you have said is exactly what I've discovered, hence starting over with the tops. This was a frankenstein build from the start (had the 8" drivers already) and I'd like to make it less so. Probably an obvious boo-boo - I'm a noob.
I'm crossing it using the built-in XO of my Crown XLS2 series, and I've tried a number of points from 120hz up to 300hz. The 'subs' aren't true subwoofers, they resemble Klipsch Cornwall cabinets with 18"s - more of a large woofer section than a true sub. I'm pretty happy with the bottom end and I've recognized I need more than an 8" midrange. What I'm trying to solve is the mid/upper mid/high transition, which the Econowave's seem to do very well.
It's a really a massive personal listening system, primarily deployed in my basement but once the snow melts, also in the backyard and a party or two.
I'm crossing it using the built-in XO of my Crown XLS2 series, and I've tried a number of points from 120hz up to 300hz. The 'subs' aren't true subwoofers, they resemble Klipsch Cornwall cabinets with 18"s - more of a large woofer section than a true sub. I'm pretty happy with the bottom end and I've recognized I need more than an 8" midrange. What I'm trying to solve is the mid/upper mid/high transition, which the Econowave's seem to do very well.
It's a really a massive personal listening system, primarily deployed in my basement but once the snow melts, also in the backyard and a party or two.
I just found your other thread where you described your listening room and it's problems, I hadn't seen that before as it was at the end of another thread so maybe you should copy and paste that here.
A couple thoughts.
- The location of your tops is terrible.. pointed right at each other they create cancellations right in the middle of the room where you want it sounding best. Move one or the other so they are both at the same end if the room and angle them in and down.
- Low frequency nodes. YES this is always the problem indoors, you have 2 subs so you have a chance to improve things. Start with 1 sub, place it in the prime listening position and play some noise or bass music and then crawl around the room perimeter to find where it is loudest. Place the 1st sub there. The second subs job is to widen the sweet spot or shrink the depth of the nulls in the room, this will take a bunch of experimentation but safe to say it should not end up in the opposite position from the first sub. You can use the same technique with the second sub placed a couple feet from where the first sub was, power up just this box(not both) and look for where it's loudest around the perimeter, and then move the second sub there.
Now power both subs together and have a listen, move the second sub one way or the other to fine tune.
A couple thoughts.
- The location of your tops is terrible.. pointed right at each other they create cancellations right in the middle of the room where you want it sounding best. Move one or the other so they are both at the same end if the room and angle them in and down.
- Low frequency nodes. YES this is always the problem indoors, you have 2 subs so you have a chance to improve things. Start with 1 sub, place it in the prime listening position and play some noise or bass music and then crawl around the room perimeter to find where it is loudest. Place the 1st sub there. The second subs job is to widen the sweet spot or shrink the depth of the nulls in the room, this will take a bunch of experimentation but safe to say it should not end up in the opposite position from the first sub. You can use the same technique with the second sub placed a couple feet from where the first sub was, power up just this box(not both) and look for where it's loudest around the perimeter, and then move the second sub there.
Now power both subs together and have a listen, move the second sub one way or the other to fine tune.
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buy a measurement microphone and work out what the problem is, otherwise your just throwing money at the problem.
horn load the 8 inch mid get a good x-over/system controller with time alignment....bobb's your uncle!
p.s. just what is this nameless 8 inch mid???
p.s. just what is this nameless 8 inch mid???
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@conanski - yep, did both of those things too, big overall improvement that highlighted the problem ranges. The configuration is no longer opposite corners, now it's more or less in the same end of the room.
@kipman - I have one but given the temps and the snow, I've only been able to measure indoors. PS Cheers for the help the first time around, as I mentioned the subs you helped me spec are working great.
Here is the 8" driver
I had wanted to go the MEH route with this whole project but it's beyond my abilities at this point. An Econowave seems to solve both of my problems - larger mid driver and better XO, plus with a knockdown cabinet I can build it in the house now rather than fight of subzero temps in the garage.
@kipman - I have one but given the temps and the snow, I've only been able to measure indoors. PS Cheers for the help the first time around, as I mentioned the subs you helped me spec are working great.
Here is the 8" driver
I had wanted to go the MEH route with this whole project but it's beyond my abilities at this point. An Econowave seems to solve both of my problems - larger mid driver and better XO, plus with a knockdown cabinet I can build it in the house now rather than fight of subzero temps in the garage.
despite the parameters i'd still horn load it and EQ the **** out of it it's D.I.Y. after all...and you have it so make it work for it's lunch...
so where in the Econowave solution is there time alignment?
so where in the Econowave solution is there time alignment?
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You should be able to do the mid/high crossover indoors using time gating:
Loudspeaker measurements
For a crossover around 500Hz you can close mic drivers and ports and compensate for their surface area and model the baffle step in software. Microphone inside box measurments also works for low frequencies. Generally its a bit of work as you cant get a direct measurement and have to splice separate ranges and incorporate some modeling but its possible.
From your driver complement I think you would be better off adding a 15" driver below the 8" and possibly horn loading the 8". Here is an example of a 8" horn loaded mid:
Sonitus Audio :: Sonitus Audio MR8XT PS170.00 IN STOCK (12 Feb 2021)
The 8" would play ~ 500 - 2000 Hz and the 15" 100 - 500Hz. The 15" would be reflex if your going to play at sustained high levels for cooling or if your not planning on going very loud sealed would also work.
Loudspeaker measurements
For a crossover around 500Hz you can close mic drivers and ports and compensate for their surface area and model the baffle step in software. Microphone inside box measurments also works for low frequencies. Generally its a bit of work as you cant get a direct measurement and have to splice separate ranges and incorporate some modeling but its possible.
From your driver complement I think you would be better off adding a 15" driver below the 8" and possibly horn loading the 8". Here is an example of a 8" horn loaded mid:
Sonitus Audio :: Sonitus Audio MR8XT PS170.00 IN STOCK (12 Feb 2021)
The 8" would play ~ 500 - 2000 Hz and the 15" 100 - 500Hz. The 15" would be reflex if your going to play at sustained high levels for cooling or if your not planning on going very loud sealed would also work.
I've never heard it, but the 18Sound XT1086 gets rave reviews. It's 80x60 degree constant directivity. There are discussions out there about this horn and the DE250. And I will add that I like the Faital 12PR300 as a woofer, FR is flat and clean up to 2-3K for an easy passive crossover at something like 1300-1500Hz. Or you can look for the 12PR320 for more Xmax if you use it in a sealed box.
Don't write off the QSC horn, either it or clones are available from time to time, you just have to inquire.
I built the Econowave HO version with the 3012HO|DE250|QSC combination. It would be perfect for your intent of an all around use speaker. The bass region is always handled separately and this top can do it all, including bass in less demanding situations. Clarity, output and perhap best of all for placement is the exceptionally wide coverage with smooth response within obtainable vertical limitations.
My cabinet is rugged and equiped with Speakon, locking 1/4" phone jack and banana connectors; go anywhere and connect to anything...ready to roll.
My prior CD cabinet build was based on the SST1 horn, similar to your ME20 but used the original Deltalite 12" with a phase plug and mesh dustcap. I used the little ME10 horn with a smaller Eminence Beta 8a driver for more portable use.
Each does well for the intended purpose with the QSC the best yet of my projects. If you are able to design your own crossover, that SEOS horn may be better yet if you don't give up woofer clarity at the crossover point.