This post is probably not going to get much love I expect in this forum.
It seems to me that most speakers in this (the Multi-Way) and the "Full Range" forum are built for the love of building speakers. This I understand and fully approve of this. It seems to me most people here are building in the budget range, again I understand and fully approve but am increasingly doubting the logic that this is an economic or sensible pursuit.
Admittedly I have not heard the Q Acoustics 2010i speakers at just £129.95 a pair, or the Behringer B1030A TRUTH at around 300 Euro a pair, is their any economic sense trying to build speakers to compete with small book shelf speakers that most people would consider acceptable speakers?
The best moving coil loud speakers I have heard recently are the KEF LS50's and these cost a lot of money, but the magic is in the drivers that are not obtainable for the DIY market or I would be considering building a clone especially if I could match this quality under 300 Euros including all parts.
Unlike buying second hand (and maybe repairing) highish end solid state amplifiers, for your own use, buying second hand or repairing speakers makes much less economic sense if it is sensible at all. This probably leads a lot of people to build their own speakers.
For budget options, of less than 300 Euro a pair, especially if your criteria including factors other than just distortion or frequency extension, for example smaller size, it seems to me that what with the cost of DIY drive units you are not saving much money by building your own speakers, and most drivers sold for DIY don't give you enough information to pick one product over another and due to lack of independent reviewers and the lack of objective standards in measurement, the measurements provided by speaker drive suppliers are close to meaningless. This web site helps but not enough to be informed in a valid way, especially if your criteria including factors other than just frequency extension, for example smaller size.
The measurements generally are useful only to dismiss low end drivers, without a lot of design work to make the speakers acceptable in a final product. The Internet and these forums are useful helping with high end drivers like the tempting Scanspeak 15M/4624G00, but a pair of these and the wood already puts you into the high end, even when excluding the time and effort because you enjoy making things.
I accept that if you are trying to save money on speakers compared to a final cost range of greater than 1000 Euros you could save some money compared to commercial solutions but I am not yet convinced at lower price points especially, if you want some thing compact, or general purpose. While making High end speakers to save money seems reasonably economic, especially when you consider most "High End" speakers are not very good sounding (but some times nice looking furniture). For example when I last went to a HIFI show in Hamburg. Frankly the b&w zeppelin in the reception area of the hotel sounded better than most "High end speakers", Most of these "High End" speakers just scratched in the higher frequencies. Obviously most of the designers and accountants in the design process of high end speakers have hearing issues above 10KHz. I guess this is probably due to their work leading them to experience to loud audio signals.
Don't get me wrong I am also a HIFI fanatic, my main speakers are Electrostatics by Quad, model ESL63. I have built a pair of sub woofers and active cross overs and I am reasonably happy with the solution. (Well the crossover will be redone a third time soon). But I want some more speakers, and in my 50 square meter flat I cant have all of it dedicated to huge high end solutions.
I have built a proof of concept electrostatic mid-range / tweeter, (It did bass too but only very very quietly due to Xmax limitations) I will get around to building a electrostatic active hybrid bookshelf speakers in time.
For budget conscious, especially wanting a small bookshelf speakers (my use case is for just testing audio electronics and in my bedroom TV/Hifi) I am getting more and more doubt full DIY is sensible. I am getting very close to buying a pair of Q Acoustics 2010i speakers at just £129.95
What do you think?
It seems to me that most speakers in this (the Multi-Way) and the "Full Range" forum are built for the love of building speakers. This I understand and fully approve of this. It seems to me most people here are building in the budget range, again I understand and fully approve but am increasingly doubting the logic that this is an economic or sensible pursuit.
Admittedly I have not heard the Q Acoustics 2010i speakers at just £129.95 a pair, or the Behringer B1030A TRUTH at around 300 Euro a pair, is their any economic sense trying to build speakers to compete with small book shelf speakers that most people would consider acceptable speakers?
The best moving coil loud speakers I have heard recently are the KEF LS50's and these cost a lot of money, but the magic is in the drivers that are not obtainable for the DIY market or I would be considering building a clone especially if I could match this quality under 300 Euros including all parts.
Unlike buying second hand (and maybe repairing) highish end solid state amplifiers, for your own use, buying second hand or repairing speakers makes much less economic sense if it is sensible at all. This probably leads a lot of people to build their own speakers.
For budget options, of less than 300 Euro a pair, especially if your criteria including factors other than just distortion or frequency extension, for example smaller size, it seems to me that what with the cost of DIY drive units you are not saving much money by building your own speakers, and most drivers sold for DIY don't give you enough information to pick one product over another and due to lack of independent reviewers and the lack of objective standards in measurement, the measurements provided by speaker drive suppliers are close to meaningless. This web site helps but not enough to be informed in a valid way, especially if your criteria including factors other than just frequency extension, for example smaller size.
The measurements generally are useful only to dismiss low end drivers, without a lot of design work to make the speakers acceptable in a final product. The Internet and these forums are useful helping with high end drivers like the tempting Scanspeak 15M/4624G00, but a pair of these and the wood already puts you into the high end, even when excluding the time and effort because you enjoy making things.
I accept that if you are trying to save money on speakers compared to a final cost range of greater than 1000 Euros you could save some money compared to commercial solutions but I am not yet convinced at lower price points especially, if you want some thing compact, or general purpose. While making High end speakers to save money seems reasonably economic, especially when you consider most "High End" speakers are not very good sounding (but some times nice looking furniture). For example when I last went to a HIFI show in Hamburg. Frankly the b&w zeppelin in the reception area of the hotel sounded better than most "High end speakers", Most of these "High End" speakers just scratched in the higher frequencies. Obviously most of the designers and accountants in the design process of high end speakers have hearing issues above 10KHz. I guess this is probably due to their work leading them to experience to loud audio signals.
Don't get me wrong I am also a HIFI fanatic, my main speakers are Electrostatics by Quad, model ESL63. I have built a pair of sub woofers and active cross overs and I am reasonably happy with the solution. (Well the crossover will be redone a third time soon). But I want some more speakers, and in my 50 square meter flat I cant have all of it dedicated to huge high end solutions.
I have built a proof of concept electrostatic mid-range / tweeter, (It did bass too but only very very quietly due to Xmax limitations) I will get around to building a electrostatic active hybrid bookshelf speakers in time.
For budget conscious, especially wanting a small bookshelf speakers (my use case is for just testing audio electronics and in my bedroom TV/Hifi) I am getting more and more doubt full DIY is sensible. I am getting very close to buying a pair of Q Acoustics 2010i speakers at just £129.95
What do you think?
go for Jeff Bagby's Continuum you won't regret. the bass is adequate. midrange is reference I mean it. HF is very relax and lush. after all it's very small classic speaker. it's a renew BBC LS3/5a (grandpa of LS50). I love Jeff's continuum over LS50, Tannoy Autographs and many other LS3/5a speakers from Chartwell, Rogers, Gini, Harbeth, Spendor. once I auditioned Continuum with an active subwoofer. I was blown away! in a blind test one would say it's a 20K+ commercial speaker.
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This is so true. Many people don't realize that for us DYIers the cost of components (drivers, caps, inductors, ...) is much higher compared to what pays a speaker manufacturer. If you factor this, and event account to the fact that 2/3 or 3/4 of the retail price is marketing, distribution and profit, you'll end up that the most economical solution for something less than 700-1000€ list price is to buy used.
As an example, a speaker costing 750€ will have probably around 200€ in material, but we pay the same material 300-400€, the same price we could buy the same speaker used. What is different is that we could finish the speaker at our taste, for example with a nice veneer. A kit probably is borderline, as you probably save a little on components, don't waste anything, and can focus on the finish. If the kit is an exceptional design you can have a winner. For a good budget speaker (200-300€ list price), it will difficult to replicate the performance with DIY for the same price (ignoring the crap that can be found at those prices).
All this is considering that you already own the tools required, because having to buy them just for building the speakers doesn't make economical sense for budget speakers.
DIY is for the fun of doing it, more so if you also design. And this is the reason why I'm doing it.
Ralf
As an example, a speaker costing 750€ will have probably around 200€ in material, but we pay the same material 300-400€, the same price we could buy the same speaker used. What is different is that we could finish the speaker at our taste, for example with a nice veneer. A kit probably is borderline, as you probably save a little on components, don't waste anything, and can focus on the finish. If the kit is an exceptional design you can have a winner. For a good budget speaker (200-300€ list price), it will difficult to replicate the performance with DIY for the same price (ignoring the crap that can be found at those prices).
All this is considering that you already own the tools required, because having to buy them just for building the speakers doesn't make economical sense for budget speakers.
DIY is for the fun of doing it, more so if you also design. And this is the reason why I'm doing it.
Ralf
You might find something very good and fixable in the second-hand shops too! 😎
There's a bit of an established formula for decent commercial speakers IMO. 4 ohm 5" or 6" bass and small box reflex and varied tweeters. Usually a second order crossover. Usually £200-300. Back in the day, 8" bass was more popular, but these things seem to have been downsized. Economics really. Our own gornir superbly reviews a typical Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 here:
www.audioexcite.com Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 review part 1
I don't have significant wood-working facilities, so most of what I do involves using an existing old box with new drivers and the simplest crossover that does what I want.
For sure, the DIY Audio hobby is fun and applies some interesting computer modelling, mathematics and physics. All leading to great sound, and that's why we do it. 🙂
There's a bit of an established formula for decent commercial speakers IMO. 4 ohm 5" or 6" bass and small box reflex and varied tweeters. Usually a second order crossover. Usually £200-300. Back in the day, 8" bass was more popular, but these things seem to have been downsized. Economics really. Our own gornir superbly reviews a typical Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 here:
www.audioexcite.com Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 review part 1
I don't have significant wood-working facilities, so most of what I do involves using an existing old box with new drivers and the simplest crossover that does what I want.
For sure, the DIY Audio hobby is fun and applies some interesting computer modelling, mathematics and physics. All leading to great sound, and that's why we do it. 🙂
Depends on the way you compare DIY to commercial. What the DIY community lacks compared to those businesses is the practical listening knowledge - there is lots of info on what drivers to pick up, how they sound and so on but until I hear something, I can`t decide on whether its what I need or not. Much of the funds invested in such business go for loudspeaker drivers, crossover components and etc., listening to all those, playing with crossover points and finally, discarding those that do not fit the bill and pushing the price down until performance limits are breached. When you go to caps for example, you may discover that there are much cheaper models that are not branded as "audio caps" but sound equal or superior to many of the hi-fi branded stuff. Spending the time to find those pays off later when the desired scale of production is reached. Also, those loudspeaker manufacturers that have positioned themselves in the low price niche tend to rely on profits from the scale of production, unit prices they get for larger batches on any materials and other factors of production differ a lot from what is available to the diy community through end-user shops. Some processes, like the cabinet design and finish can be optimized to such level that the cost per unit may well reach unthinkable for the diy-er prices - for example buying particle board from the local Bauhaus store may cost you 6-7EUR/sq. m where a large sheet ( 2.4m x 2.6m I think is what I get here ) can drop this price to 2.2EUR/sq. m. and that`s 64% less. There are good sounding drivers that are produced by unknown companies in China, 95% may be crap but there are some that could be quite good. Buying large quantities may push the price to extremely low levels, then you need one guy to measure them and select those that fit some +/-10% tolerance goal and you`re in the game. Some manufacturers even bypass this stage and put whatever comes out of the cardboard boxes. There are processes that require significant preparation and setup of machinery - if you order 20 pairs to be produced, the price per pair drops seriouslydue to spreading of fixed costs.
That being said, there is a price level where diy may become viable only if some sort of satisfaction of the self-achievment is expected.
That being said, there is a price level where diy may become viable only if some sort of satisfaction of the self-achievment is expected.
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Small Correction
I should point out that I made a cut and paste error the high end driver I was excited by was the ScanSpeak 10F/8424G00 not the Scanspeak 15M/4624G00, the argument though remains unchanged.
I should point out that I made a cut and paste error the high end driver I was excited by was the ScanSpeak 10F/8424G00 not the Scanspeak 15M/4624G00, the argument though remains unchanged.
Thankyou for your considered replies.
We all agree DIY is mostly for the fun not the economics. Maybe we should all start to explore the economics of the issue though, and see if we can compete with budget speakers.
It sounds like this speaker has some following. I'm not surprised the design objectives seem clear and well based. It roughly translates to an exceptional 2000 Euro range commercial speaker.
Since I cant buy the plans, only a complete kit, at $353.59 + cost for boxes, the import duty would add another 20% to the price. Plus boxes and finish will take some time. Furthermore I don't know anyone in the area who can give me an audition. That said it does look like a good speaker and one i should like to own.
Thankyou for your very valuable points, I think we completely agree. Though I'm not sure buying used drivers is such a risk free option. I remember auditioning a Quad ESL57 in Hanover that the seller advertised as in perfect condition, which had no functioning tweeter pannel. As you can guess I did not buy it, but I did loose the cost of hiring a car for the day.
I 100% support you in this reason of building speakers. 🙂
Thankyou for a _most_ interesting link. This is one of the best reviews I have seen of any comersially available speaker. I am half tempted to buy a Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 on the basis of it, but it does make you wonder about thier quality control.
Now this is a very useful suggestion. Particularly if you live in the UK. In this area Germany is worse (though thier are reasons I prefure living in Germany to the UK, or I would go back home).
As some one who comes from the East of England, Ebay in the UK, is much more exciting for second hand speaker bargains (and second hand HiFi in general) than Germany in my opinion. Also second hand electronics shops in the UK are far more interesting, German second hand HiFi shops are either selling rubbish or at a price reflecting their real value (If they where refurbished and they are usually not) which is then quiet expensive. kleinanzeigen is better for bargains here in Germany but to find nice wooden boxes is hard, Germany is a country of a lot of black, white and gray speaker boxes, rather than high end real wood or real wood veneer. I also typically prefer British speakers sound to German HiFi Speakers though I will credit ELAC with some nice speaker designs.
A very important point here.
A very good example here.
I think this is where the real bargins of budget HiFi will come from in the future, but since with chinease suppliers we cant hear before we buy the threashold for this happening is still quiet high.
For me this is the critical question and the related question, when not related to the enjoyment of doing:
At what price point are the best DIY speakers better than the best commercial speakers?
For example can we make a better speaker than the Q Acoustics 2010i speakers less than £129.95 a pair?
For example can we make a better speaker than the active Behringer B3030A TRUTH at less than 328 Euro a pair?
For example can we make a better speaker than the Kef LS50 at 998 Euro a pair.
As stated above 2 members think the "Continuum" by Jeff Bagby is better at $353.59 + cost for boxes than the Kef LS50 at 998 Euro a pair. I personally think the Kef LS50's are exceptional and any moving coil speaker at any price range matching that quality is a tall order. I shall for the sake of charity and argument accept they are correct.
Is it possible only for 1000 Euro speakers to best commercial offerings tools time effort and measurement equipment excluded. I suspect the best solution to going lower in the budget may have been offered by
At what price point does it make sound quality sence to buy premade speakers? At what price point does it make sence to make / design DIY speakers?
Again please more thoughts 🙂
We all agree DIY is mostly for the fun not the economics. Maybe we should all start to explore the economics of the issue though, and see if we can compete with budget speakers.
It sounds like this speaker has some following. I'm not surprised the design objectives seem clear and well based. It roughly translates to an exceptional 2000 Euro range commercial speaker.
Since I cant buy the plans, only a complete kit, at $353.59 + cost for boxes, the import duty would add another 20% to the price. Plus boxes and finish will take some time. Furthermore I don't know anyone in the area who can give me an audition. That said it does look like a good speaker and one i should like to own.
Thankyou for your very valuable points, I think we completely agree. Though I'm not sure buying used drivers is such a risk free option. I remember auditioning a Quad ESL57 in Hanover that the seller advertised as in perfect condition, which had no functioning tweeter pannel. As you can guess I did not buy it, but I did loose the cost of hiring a car for the day.
I 100% support you in this reason of building speakers. 🙂
Thankyou for a _most_ interesting link. This is one of the best reviews I have seen of any comersially available speaker. I am half tempted to buy a Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 on the basis of it, but it does make you wonder about thier quality control.
Now this is a very useful suggestion. Particularly if you live in the UK. In this area Germany is worse (though thier are reasons I prefure living in Germany to the UK, or I would go back home).
As some one who comes from the East of England, Ebay in the UK, is much more exciting for second hand speaker bargains (and second hand HiFi in general) than Germany in my opinion. Also second hand electronics shops in the UK are far more interesting, German second hand HiFi shops are either selling rubbish or at a price reflecting their real value (If they where refurbished and they are usually not) which is then quiet expensive. kleinanzeigen is better for bargains here in Germany but to find nice wooden boxes is hard, Germany is a country of a lot of black, white and gray speaker boxes, rather than high end real wood or real wood veneer. I also typically prefer British speakers sound to German HiFi Speakers though I will credit ELAC with some nice speaker designs.
A very important point here.
A very good example here.
I think this is where the real bargins of budget HiFi will come from in the future, but since with chinease suppliers we cant hear before we buy the threashold for this happening is still quiet high.
For me this is the critical question and the related question, when not related to the enjoyment of doing:
At what price point are the best DIY speakers better than the best commercial speakers?
For example can we make a better speaker than the Q Acoustics 2010i speakers less than £129.95 a pair?
For example can we make a better speaker than the active Behringer B3030A TRUTH at less than 328 Euro a pair?
For example can we make a better speaker than the Kef LS50 at 998 Euro a pair.
As stated above 2 members think the "Continuum" by Jeff Bagby is better at $353.59 + cost for boxes than the Kef LS50 at 998 Euro a pair. I personally think the Kef LS50's are exceptional and any moving coil speaker at any price range matching that quality is a tall order. I shall for the sake of charity and argument accept they are correct.
Is it possible only for 1000 Euro speakers to best commercial offerings tools time effort and measurement equipment excluded. I suspect the best solution to going lower in the budget may have been offered by
At what price point does it make sound quality sence to buy premade speakers? At what price point does it make sence to make / design DIY speakers?
Again please more thoughts 🙂
I think you need to DIY if you want anything other than sealed or bass reflex boxes. Sure it's tough to beat the performance to price ratio of a Behringer B2013A truth monitor for $400US a pair - flat from 55Hz to 21kHz and built in amps. There is a whole discussion on another thread how these beat the Linkwitz Orions. But they are bass reflex boxes, and so are most of the other major brand reference monitors for studio mixing/mastering.
Not all DIY speaker designs need to use super expensive premium drivers to attain quite respectable performance from flat frequency and low distortion. In the full range realm, if you are in need of nearfield and not too high of an SPL level many sub $40 drivers are excellent with flat response and -50dB harmonic distortion. Add to this if you desire a transmission line, a back loaded horn, an open baffle, a sealed spiral semi infinite baffle a la Nautilus - DIY is the way to go and it can be very cost effective.
If you don't mind bass reflex and just want flat response with no fuss by all means buy a B2013A (or whatever your favorite monitor is) and be done with it. For me, the fun of designing, modeling, and building prototypes and measuring them, then listening to them for not much money because I don't use super premium drivers has been a lot of fun. I have built over 12 different types of speakers over the last 2yrs on very little cost because of reuse of drivers. There is no way I would have experienced as many types of speakers and different alignments if I bought them commercially made. And I would not have learned as much.
Not all DIY speaker designs need to use super expensive premium drivers to attain quite respectable performance from flat frequency and low distortion. In the full range realm, if you are in need of nearfield and not too high of an SPL level many sub $40 drivers are excellent with flat response and -50dB harmonic distortion. Add to this if you desire a transmission line, a back loaded horn, an open baffle, a sealed spiral semi infinite baffle a la Nautilus - DIY is the way to go and it can be very cost effective.
If you don't mind bass reflex and just want flat response with no fuss by all means buy a B2013A (or whatever your favorite monitor is) and be done with it. For me, the fun of designing, modeling, and building prototypes and measuring them, then listening to them for not much money because I don't use super premium drivers has been a lot of fun. I have built over 12 different types of speakers over the last 2yrs on very little cost because of reuse of drivers. There is no way I would have experienced as many types of speakers and different alignments if I bought them commercially made. And I would not have learned as much.
If you attach a reasonable value on the space to build the speakers, purchase and maintain the tools, time to manufacture, time to research and learn to design and manufacture, etc... never mind the parts cost then DIYing speakers can never make economic sense unless the process of DIYing speakers has a significant positive value. This is what can make a budget DIY speaker better value for some than a commercial speaker that costs less than the DIY parts and objectively performs better.
If you have to buy all the parts, don't bother to DIY.
According to my calculations, labor hours not included,
total parts cost for a pair of passive 2 way speakers with
good value 5,25" bass and dome tweeter would be about
200 € for a painted version.
Here's a couple of 8" bass speakers I bought second-hand. The lovely wooden £60 Monitor Audio R300-MD had fried SEAS 19TAF/G tweeters. Which rather kick-started my hobby! The simplistic filter was something I improved using a KEF Celeste III idea, which has almost become my standard filter. And the little £6 Monacor HT22-8 cone tweeter is excellent.
The Sony E44 were £20. The retro-looking high efficiency drivers are superb if you add a good crossover, instead of the mere 2.2uF single tweeter cap originally fitted. Terrific detail and dynamics.
I usually add some rubber and cork panel damping aka acoustic underlay, and some wadding behind the bass chassis. It's an old trick with closed box to pad the back of the woofer with some touching firm wadding, which stops chassis ringing. 😎
I was overly influenced by Troels Gravesen's TQWT with the small bass coil on the Sony. I think I shall next make it bigger for more bass. Next project is a 5" reflex polycone design, probably with metal tweeter. Oh wait, that's rather Continuum, isn't it? 😀
You will notice most people at diyaudio are incredibly secretive about their circuits. I think this holds up progress. Speakers really aren't hard.
The Sony E44 were £20. The retro-looking high efficiency drivers are superb if you add a good crossover, instead of the mere 2.2uF single tweeter cap originally fitted. Terrific detail and dynamics.
I usually add some rubber and cork panel damping aka acoustic underlay, and some wadding behind the bass chassis. It's an old trick with closed box to pad the back of the woofer with some touching firm wadding, which stops chassis ringing. 😎
I was overly influenced by Troels Gravesen's TQWT with the small bass coil on the Sony. I think I shall next make it bigger for more bass. Next project is a 5" reflex polycone design, probably with metal tweeter. Oh wait, that's rather Continuum, isn't it? 😀
You will notice most people at diyaudio are incredibly secretive about their circuits. I think this holds up progress. Speakers really aren't hard.
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>>>>You will notice most people at diyaudio are incredibly secretive about their circuits. I think this holds up progress. Speakers really aren't hard. <<<<<
I briefly visit a section of the forum called "Loudspeakers". Yeah, a special kind of people here. Get out of here, hang out with an "electrician" 😛
I briefly visit a section of the forum called "Loudspeakers". Yeah, a special kind of people here. Get out of here, hang out with an "electrician" 😛
You will notice most people at diyaudio are incredibly secretive
about their circuits. I think this holds up progress. Speakers really
aren't hard.
What's holding up the progress has nothing to do with circuits, rather
with not wanting to do measurements. There is hardly good excuse
for not doing them. Let me paraphrase Dr.Geddes: "Use whatever
filter works and you can't say what works unless you measure".
🙂
I would suggest that there are at least two possible explanations for this reluctance to share:<snip>
You will notice most people at diyaudio are incredibly secretive about their circuits. I think this holds up progress. Speakers really aren't hard.
- Some people may want to recoup some of the cost of their pursuing their interest by "selling on" their expertise.
- People may fear having their designs ridiculed.
IMO, there's very little that's difficult about filters. Aren't they all acoustically LR2, BW3 and LR4 in the end? 🙂
I spent a lot of time looking at the classic designs, and found, for instance, that KEF and Celestion always used the same sort of third order tweeter filter. That's because the filter dominates the response with dome tweeters. Attenuation is not hard either.
And you can learn to spot an easy driver which is well-behaved. Like this one.
H1471-08 CA22RNY
All that will need is a coil and a shunt capacitor and resistor to be reasonably flat. The voicecoil inductance is important though. High Le will fight your efforts to filter. Hence a bit of final tweaking always required. I find my expensive £70 LCR meter very useful too.
For all that, I have my disasters. This 10L MS15 box was just plain too small for a 6" driver. Bass is poor.
I spent a lot of time looking at the classic designs, and found, for instance, that KEF and Celestion always used the same sort of third order tweeter filter. That's because the filter dominates the response with dome tweeters. Attenuation is not hard either.
And you can learn to spot an easy driver which is well-behaved. Like this one.
H1471-08 CA22RNY
All that will need is a coil and a shunt capacitor and resistor to be reasonably flat. The voicecoil inductance is important though. High Le will fight your efforts to filter. Hence a bit of final tweaking always required. I find my expensive £70 LCR meter very useful too.
For all that, I have my disasters. This 10L MS15 box was just plain too small for a 6" driver. Bass is poor.
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Well, some things just can never be bought.
Education gained during the research process, Skills learned/honed during the build process, Sanity and Relaxation as you spend several weekends and nights after a long stressful day at work, and Pride of your handiwork after the build.... all priceless.
If on the other hand your goal is to save money, just buy ready-made and be done with it. Open the box, sit back and listen.
Education gained during the research process, Skills learned/honed during the build process, Sanity and Relaxation as you spend several weekends and nights after a long stressful day at work, and Pride of your handiwork after the build.... all priceless.
If on the other hand your goal is to save money, just buy ready-made and be done with it. Open the box, sit back and listen.
Jeff Bagby's Continuum speaker probably does not make much money for Jeff Bagby. I would suggest few will pay even a successful prize winning speaker designer for his design even if it does beat the Kef LS50. But then I program open source software for a living, so I would say that wouldn't I 🙂
I suspect the some times aggressive tone on this forum, and others on the web. A lack of measurement equipment has led some people to fear their designs being ridiculed. This is more likely a reason for secrecy. This said I was amazed to discover when first measuring my subwoofer crossover with a measurement mic how close to correct I had got just by ear, and playing sweep signals to make the cross over smooth. The problems that remain are more how to make the minimum loss of sound quality on the high pass but that's seriously getting of thread.
For what ever reason, I do think it holds people like me back from building some designs such as Jeff Bagby's Continuum. Not that I am currently in the market for anouther referance system, just some OK small speakers for testing that wont make me very upset if I blow them up, due to a broken whatever when repairing or building things, which is what got me to start this thread, as all the DIY ideas I had seen where too up market and special. I guess its the second hand lotery for me for thsi usecase.
Anyway Im also getting away from the theme of this thread about price points for good value DIY designs and how they compare to good value premade speakers. (Especially for book shelf models)
Your thoughts welcome both on and off topic 🙂
I thought this bookshelf effort of Troels Gravesen was rather good (especially the XT25 version) and definitely affordable:
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
The Continuum is a rather different speaker than I expected. You can read about it here direct from Jeff Bagby:
Monitor clones
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
The Continuum is a rather different speaker than I expected. You can read about it here direct from Jeff Bagby:
Monitor clones
To myself DIY is a welcome mental exercise. Expense can be far less than many other hobbies. Have designed, built or rebuilt just about everything imaginable, including speakers.
From the onset this particular field has a very steep learning curve. It's the personal challenge to comprehend all the sciences involved and bring them together cohesively.
Also am not into being pigeon holed into the mindset that a particular brand or model regardless of cost to be a member of elitists. I'm quite satisfied knowing why I designed it and the performance reflects that. Advantage for the DIY'er is being able to compensate for your specific room/space. No commercial offerings can do that. 😉
Besides you can always say, I designed that. 🙂
Mike
P.S. Once you do start to grasp the big picture, you'll never view the world the same
From the onset this particular field has a very steep learning curve. It's the personal challenge to comprehend all the sciences involved and bring them together cohesively.
Also am not into being pigeon holed into the mindset that a particular brand or model regardless of cost to be a member of elitists. I'm quite satisfied knowing why I designed it and the performance reflects that. Advantage for the DIY'er is being able to compensate for your specific room/space. No commercial offerings can do that. 😉
Besides you can always say, I designed that. 🙂
Mike
P.S. Once you do start to grasp the big picture, you'll never view the world the same
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