Dual Single Ended Amplifier? - (not PSE)

[Evenharmonics]

I have never heard a dht sound right.

Depending on what you mean by "right". If you meant it as in satisfies your personal preference, then it gives no bearing for someone else reading this because their preference may differ from yours. To them, it may sound wrong. The problem with such description is that it's all over the place, thus often turning discussion into argument.

Now, if you meant "right" as in its level of fidelity, then it's a very different discussion. To be able to determine if it is high fidelity or low, the listener must have the means to make a comparison to the reference source. Not many people have such luxury so it's a difficult task.

Having said that, let me ask you a question, which version of sounding "right" did you mean?

 

[Positron]

Depending on what you mean by "right". If you meant it as in satisfies your personal preference, then it gives no bearing for someone else reading this because their preference may differ from yours. To them, it may sound wrong. The problem with such description is that it's all over the place, thus often turning discussion into argument.

Now, if you meant "right" as in its level of fidelity, then it's a very different discussion. To be able to determine if it is high fidelity or low, the listener must have the means to make a comparison to the reference source. Not many people have such luxury so it's a difficult task.

Having said that, let me ask you a question, which version of sounding "right" did you mean?

Of course vs a live instrument as a reference. And not surprising since the high distortion changes the instrument's natural harmonics, plus poor frequency response one usually sees.


Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

(Although SS designs can be over bassed.)

Over bassed? Do you mean SS designs can cause frequency response with boosted low end?

 

[Evenharmonics]

Of course vs a live instrument as a reference.

So you did side by side comparisons with the reference sound in the same room it was recorded and mastered? What were the instruments? And what speakers was it played through?

 

[20to20]

This thread was started to explore the possibility of making a pseudo push pull amp by connecting two SE's together.

I'll report back when I have had the time to stuff some SE transformers into a P-P amp, or wire two SE channels together.

TL,

I don't think it was ever that complicated a question from the start. The OP was...

Two SE output stages per channel, signal at each grid out of phase WRT the other. Two SE output transformers per channel, one of which has its secondary winding reversed so that the waveforms are recombined in phase.

It's just a phase split double SE output with the inverted signal reinverted by reversing the output tranny secondary connections paralleled to the speaker to double the power to the speaker.

If so, my comment would be to just split a single positive phase and drive two SE outputs in parallel.

But if you are retrofitting a PP amp with SE outputs then the question is what is the best way to do that.

20

 

[Positron]

So you did side by side comparisons with the reference sound in the same room it was recorded and mastered? What were the instruments? And what speakers was it played through?

Here we go. The SETs I have heard, which is dozens if not hundreds over the years, were not even close to accurate. 2A3s, 45s, 300bs etc. Some speakers were Avandgarde, Klipsch etc. One system sounded like a girl on helium, no exaggeration. None were close to reproducing a "live" instrument. Especially compared to Atmasphere etc.

One interesting example which tells a story is CES/THE SHOW several years ago. I ventured through the rooms three times a day, different times. I never saw more than 2 in a SET room, most were empty. Yet there were standing room crowds at Atmasphere's and other rooms on several occasions. The sound was clearly superior to the SET rooms. So you claim the CDs, or TT were only poor and cursed in the SET rooms?

Another way one can tell is the parts, values, and distortion levels. (See my previous post.) So what makes you think an SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp?

I found what occurs at events vs what is propagated on forums is quite different.

Yes, it is possible to exaggerate the bass in SS units.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

Here we go. The SETs I have heard, which is dozens if not hundreds over the years,

In which setting? I asked if you made the comparisons in the same room where the reference sound was recorded and mastered. You know, to be able to compare with the "original". It's apparent that you didn't, which answers your following reply quoted.

were not even close to accurate. 2A3s, 45s, 300bs etc. Some speakers were Avandgarde, Klipsch etc. One system sounded like a girl on helium, no exaggeration. None were close to reproducing a "live" instrument. Especially compared to Atmasphere etc.

That's just a speculation by you. Unfortunately, it provides no bearing for someone to follow because you are describing your own taste. As mentioned previously, different people have different taste.

One interesting example which tells a story is CES/THE SHOW several years ago. I ventured through the rooms three times a day, different times. I never saw more than 2 in a SET room, most were empty. Yet there were standing room crowds at Atmasphere's and other rooms on several occasions. The sound was clearly superior to the SET rooms. So you claim the CDs, or TT were only poor and cursed in the SET rooms?

Again, your personal taste. Not that it's against the forum rule to express your taste, I'm just asking you to clarify it so that the novice members reading this won't confuse the two (preference vs difference).

Another way one can tell is the parts, values, and distortion levels. (See my previous post.) So what makes you think an SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp?

When did I write that I think SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp? Also, better in what way? THD measurement, audibility comparison done in objective way or subjective way, power per price, aesthetics or what?

I found what occurs at events vs what is propagated on forums is quite different.

I would be delighted to read about your experiences at recording / mastering rooms if you have any.

Yes, it is possible to exaggerate the bass in SS units.

Which unit is it? Brand name and model number please?

 

[Positron]

Evenharmonics;3115720]In which setting? I asked if you made the comparisons in the same room where the reference sound was recorded and mastered. You know, to be able to compare with the "original". It's apparent that you didn't, which answers your following reply quoted.

That's just a speculation by you. Unfortunately, it provides no bearing for someone to follow because you are describing your own taste. As mentioned previously, different people have different taste.

Unfortunately not true nor scientific.

1) If the sound is not consistent to a live instrument, then it is inaccurate.
2) Its specs, frequency response and distortion etc, are inconsistent with musical accuracy.

So your comments are inconsequential at best. It has nothing to do with "personal taste" on my part.

Again, your personal taste. Not that it's against the forum rule to express your taste, I'm just asking you to clarify it so that the novice members reading this won't confuse the two (preference vs difference).

Read above. As one can see, it is your comments that are not scientific but in the arena of personal taste. My comments are scientific and backed up with scientific fact.

When did I write that I think SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp? Also, better in what way? THD measurement, audibility comparison done in objective way or subjective way, power per price, aesthetics or what?

Please re-read my first and following posts. I made it very clear under what conditions.

I would be delighted to read about your experiences at recording / mastering rooms if you have any.

Obviously you have not read my previous posts. Please re-read my previous posts as the information was clearly provided.

If you wish artificially flavored sound, that is your perogative. However, please don't mislead others into believing that I believe in the same.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

Unfortunately not true nor scientific.

Which one, "In which setting?", "That's just a speculation by you.", "it provides no bearing ..." or "different people have different taste."? Would you please be more specific?

1) If the sound is not consistent to a live instrument, then it is inaccurate.

Sound, yes, it's something we have to use our ears to determine. In doing so, how would you set up the comparison rig? Record in one area, then listen to it in a different area with different room acoustics?

2) Its specs, frequency response and distortion etc, are inconsistent with musical accuracy.

Musical accuracy, how would you determine that? Listen to it at the mastering room through mastering speakers and then compare it at your home or electronics show through different speakers?

So your comments are inconsequential at best. It has nothing to do with "personal taste" on my part.

Read above. As one can see, it is your comments that are not scientific but in the arena of personal taste. My comments are scientific and backed up with scientific fact.

You haven't mentioned anything suggesting that you've performed objective listening comparisons with the reference source therefore your claims about "accurate" isn't based on that. In such case, what else is it other than your speculation or imagination?

Please re-read my first and following posts. I made it very clear under what conditions.

I asked you, "When did I write that I think SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp?". Lets get that straightened out first, shall we? Would you mind quoting such post by me?

Obviously you have not read my previous posts. Please re-read my previous posts as the information was clearly provided.

If you wish artificially flavored sound, that is your perogative. However, please don't mislead others into believing that I believe in the same.

Then lets have some Q&A instead of dodging my questions.
Here are unanswered questions:
1. Regarding SS amps with exaggerated bass, which unit is it? Brand name and model number please?
2. Have you done any listening comparisons with the reference source in the same setting where it was produced?

 

[SemperFi]

Just to answer the OP...Bel Canto made an amp like that, two SE amps bridged, yes bridged, two hot outputs to speaker. Got rave reviews in Stereophile, some in the time late '90s.
...whatyaknow...found it: Bel Canto SET 80 monoblock power amplifier | Stereophile.com

 

[Positron]

Then lets have some Q&A instead of dodging my questions.
Here are unanswered questions:
1. Regarding SS amps with exaggerated bass, which unit is it? Brand name and model number please?
2. Have you done any listening comparisons with the reference source in the same setting where it was produced?

I see you are jumping subjects now that are not pertinent to PP and SET amps.

1) Don't need a model number as if you understood basic electronic design, you would have known by schematics. Since you refuse to deal with science, your agenda is obviously something else.

2) That is an incorrect question. The correct question is VS a live instrument. I believe I mentioned this before. Again, you are not using science, but a false premise to argue from.

By the way, I stated twice that PP can sound better. Not all PPs out there do. Your arguing against my comments emphasizes your position that a PP amp cannot sound as good as an SET.

I asked you, "When did I write that I think SET amp is better than an OTL or PP amp?".

Read my above comments.

Twice I stated can sound better than SET. From the start, you have disagreed that PP amps can sound better than SETs. Noticed I used a question mark. Start with post #22 and read on.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

I see you are jumping subjects now that are not pertinent to PP and SET amps.

1) Don't need a model number as if you understood basic electronic design, you would have known by schematics. Since you refuse to deal with science, your agenda is obviously something else.

2) That is an incorrect question. The correct question is VS a live instrument. I believe I mentioned this before. Again, you are not using science, but a false premise to argue from.

By the way, I stated twice that PP can sound better. Not all PPs out there do. Your arguing against my comments emphasizes your position that a PP amp cannot sound as good as an SET.



Read my above comments.

Question was,

Depending on what you mean by "right". If you meant it as in satisfies your personal preference, then it gives no bearing for someone else reading this because their preference may differ from yours. To them, it may sound wrong. The problem with such description is that it's all over the place, thus often turning discussion into argument.

Now, if you meant "right" as in its level of fidelity, then it's a very different discussion. To be able to determine if it is high fidelity or low, the listener must have the means to make a comparison to the reference source. Not many people have such luxury so it's a difficult task.

Having said that, let me ask you a question, which version of sounding "right" did you mean?

and you said,

Of course vs a live instrument as a reference. And not surprising since the high distortion changes the instrument's natural harmonics, plus poor frequency response one usually sees.

So I'm asking you, how did you compare the sound of live instrument and reproduced sound of it through different amps to know which amp sounded right and which didn't? Did you compare them at equal setting (same room / area where the sound of live instrument was produced)?

Your next one was,

(Although SS designs can be over bassed.)

This must be based on your experience with SS amp so I'm asking you, which one was it?

Twice I stated can sound better than SET. From the start, you have disagreed that PP amps can sound better than SETs. Noticed I used a question mark. Start with post #22 and read on.

Where did I post such disagreement? Can you quote it please?

 

[Positron]

Evenharmonics;3116947]Question was,

So I'm asking you, how did you compare the sound of live instrument and reproduced sound of it through different amps to know which amp sounded right and which didn't? Did you compare them at equal setting (same room / area where the sound of live instrument was produced)?

As folks can see, Evenharmonics sidestepped why he was attacking my comment that PP can sound better than SET. Notice he continues, though slighly, to claim SETs always sound better although he does not mention them by name. So where is your proof that all SETs sound better?

You simply listen to them. They sounded that poor. I see you conveniently sidestepped that virtually no visitors were in the SETs at the CES/The Show a few years ago. So you continue to disagree with everyone else as well. (See a previous post with more information.)

Name an SET brand/model that you claim sounds "live", accurate, and show me its schematic. By the way, you sidestepped the science of harmonic content etc, which negatively influences the tonality.

Your next one was,

This must be based on your experience with SS amp so I'm asking you, which one was it?

As I mentioned previously, check out the schematics/designs of DC coupled SS amplifiers. If not, please don't claim to be an expert in circuit design.

Where did I post such disagreement? Can you quote it please?

I already provided the information in my previous posts. Please do not insult me and the audience by going in circles and bringing up questions that were answered on previous pages. It is not becoming Even.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

As folks can see, Evenharmonics sidestepped why he was attacking my comment that PP can sound better than SET. Notice he continues, though slighly, to claim SETs always sound better although he does not mention them by name. So where is your proof that all SETs sound better?

You made a post about what you've heard and that's a fact.

All and all, over the decades, I have never heard a dht sound right.

Another fact, I asked you what you mean by sound "right" and you said it's reference to live sound.

Of course vs a live instrument as a reference.

Then I asked to see if the listening comaprisons you've done were objective or just casual subjective observation which is useless due to its lack of personal bias control and limitations of aural memory span. Not to mention the serious impact of different speaker sound characteristics and room acoustics.

The SETs I have heard, which is dozens if not hundreds over the years, were not even close to accurate. 2A3s, 45s, 300bs etc. Some speakers were Avandgarde, Klipsch etc. One system sounded like a girl on helium, no exaggeration. None were close to reproducing a "live" instrument. Especially compared to Atmasphere etc.

You brought up the experiences of what you've heard and I asked you more specifics, then you accuse me of jumping subjects and brought up electronic design and schematics. I'm the one trying to stay with the subject and you tried to switch the discussion.

I see you are jumping subjects now that are not pertinent to PP and SET amps.

1) Don't need a model number as if you understood basic electronic design, you would have known by schematics. Since you refuse to deal with science, your agenda is obviously something else.

2) That is an incorrect question. The correct question is VS a live instrument. I believe I mentioned this before. Again, you are not using science, but a false premise to argue from.

You simply listen to them. They sounded that poor.

Compared to what? The reference sound?

I see you conveniently sidestepped that virtually no visitors were in the SETs at the CES/The Show a few years ago. So you continue to disagree with everyone else as well. (See a previous post with more information.)

How do you compare those amps with the reference sound at CES show?

Name an SET brand/model that you claim sounds "live", accurate, and show me its schematic. By the way, you sidestepped the science of harmonic content etc, which negatively influences the tonality.

I didn't make such claim. What are you talking about?

As I mentioned previously, check out the schematics/designs of DC coupled SS amplifiers. If not, please don't claim to be an expert in circuit design.

Another attempt to switch the discussion from audible sound to circuit design?

I already provided the information in my previous posts.

No, you didn't. Actually, you couldn't because it doesn't exist. Please prove me wrong by quoting me saying I disagreed that PP amps can sound better than SETs.

Please do not insult me and the audience by going in circles and bringing up questions that were answered on previous pages. It is not becoming Even.

You have not answered those questions. You just danced around.

Positron, why is it that I've been quoting your own words as evidence but you haven't quoted mine for evidence?

 

[opnly bafld]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone has seen, built, or heard anything like this..

Two SE output stages per channel, signal at each grid out of phase WRT the other. Two SE output transformers per channel, one of which has its secondary winding reversed so that the waveforms are recombined in phase.

There are some interesting things that supposedly occur in that there is a combined function of the two output transformers.

All of which is outlined in the diagrams and description at;
Dual single ended amplifier by Cohen, Graeme John ? AU1996042023

I'm interested in pretty much anything anyone cares to offer in response.


Thanks,
Shane

In the link below (Part II) the designer talks about the original Torii of which only a handful were made.
DECWARE - Zen TORII Mk II designer's notes

A classified ad for one from last year with a few comments.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1318621096/4#4

 

[Positron]

Evenharmonics;3117121]You made a post about what you've heard and that's a fact.

That is correct. And I have the measurements back me up since measurements are correlated to sound. See below for further information.

Another fact, I asked you what you mean by sound "right" and you said it's reference to live sound.

That is correct. I compare to live instruments. That has been stated several times now.

Then I asked to see if the listening comaprisons you've done were objective or just casual subjective observation which is useless due to its lack of personal bias control and limitations of aural memory span.

Which is a misleading statement as Floyd Toole himself states (section 3-3.3 I believe) that one only needs to eliminate manufacturer's name and sight of the instrument. No peer reviews or any other controls. None. So Toole's and other's dbts are just as flawed as sighted unless you can prove otherwise.

And what is the limitation of aural memory?? How accurate for how long, under what conditions? Who states it? Your general statements are worthless and non scientific Evenharmonics, designed to create bias instead of scientific understanding.

Not to mention the serious impact of different speaker sound characteristics and room acoustics.

We are talking dozens of SE rooms. The harmonic structure of the instruments is already inferior due to amplification distortions. This is demonstrated by other types of amplification devices used in other rooms of exactly same dimensions which produced much more live, accurate instruments. Not just one room, but room after room. Attendees left the SE rooms as well. Obviously the SE rooms were not world class by any means, even by personal preference.

Where is the SE schematic that I requested. I cannot because you will condemn any schematic I present.

You brought up the experiences of what you've heard and I asked you more specifics, then you accuse me of jumping subjects and brought up electronic design and schematics. I'm the one trying to stay with the subject and you tried to switch the discussion.

First, you jumped subjects by re-introducing SS & bass.... which I thought fizzeled out. The subject is PP, SE, OTLs, so are you sticking to SE, PP, OTL or not?

There is a correlation between specs and sound. Great specs can sound accurate or not. Poor specs can never sound accurate.

How do you compare those amps with the reference sound at CES show?

Re-read my previous post as I have explained it several times now. If you do not understand what is written, then there is no need to proceed further. There appears to be no research on your part, just incorporating someone elses claims. Any amp can be compared to live instruments in and of themselves.

Another attempt to switch the discussion from audible sound to circuit design?

It is obvious you do not understand how specs relate to sound quality. Check above. Great specs can sound accurate or not. Poor specs can never sound accurate.

No, you didn't. Actually, you couldn't because it doesn't exist. Please prove me wrong by quoting me saying I disagreed that PP amps can sound better than SETs.

Start at post #22 folks, page 3. Re-read previous posts for proper context.

You have not answered those questions. You just danced around.

Sigh: The fact that you do not understand basic electronics does not mean I have danced around, but that you do not understand. I have yet to see one bit of science from you. Instead it is generalizations, no schematic cause you don't understand them and how they relate to sound.
I do not see any research and development from you. Unfortunately, you appear to have simply read, and attempted to apply what someone else has written. So you have no idea if what you read is true or false.

Positron, why is it that I've been quoting your own words as evidence but you haven't quoted mine for evidence?

Actually you have been taking them out of context, as I have had to correct you and ask that you not mislead the public. I have, on the other hand, requested the public to read the comments in context, usually starting at post #22, page 3.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

That is correct. And I have the measurements back me up since measurements are correlated to sound. See below for further information.



That is correct. I compare to live instruments. That has been stated several times now.



Which is a misleading statement as Floyd Toole himself states (section 3-3.3 I believe) that one only needs to eliminate manufacturer's name and sight of the instrument. No peer reviews or any other controls. None. So Toole's and other's dbts are just as flawed as sighted unless you can prove otherwise.

And what is the limitation of aural memory?? How accurate for how long, under what conditions? Who states it? Your general statements are worthless and non scientific Evenharmonics, designed to create bias instead of scientific understanding.



We are talking dozens of SE rooms. The harmonic structure of the instruments is already inferior due to amplification distortions. This is demonstrated by other types of amplification devices used in other rooms of exactly same dimensions which produced much more live, accurate instruments. Not just one room, but room after room. Attendees left the SE rooms as well. Obviously the SE rooms were not world class by any means, even by personal preference.

Where is the SE schematic that I requested. I cannot because you will condemn any schematic I present.



First, you jumped subjects by re-introducing SS & bass.... which I thought fizzeled out. The subject is PP, SE, OTLs, so are you sticking to SE, PP, OTL or not?

There is a correlation between specs and sound. Great specs can sound accurate or not. Poor specs can never sound accurate.



Re-read my previous post as I have explained it several times now. If you do not understand what is written, then there is no need to proceed further. There appears to be no research on your part, just incorporating someone elses claims. Any amp can be compared to live instruments in and of themselves.



It is obvious you do not understand how specs relate to sound quality. Check above. Great specs can sound accurate or not. Poor specs can never sound accurate.



Start at post #22 folks, page 3. Re-read previous posts for proper context.



Sigh: The fact that you do not understand basic electronics does not mean I have danced around, but that you do not understand. I have yet to see one bit of science from you. Instead it is generalizations, no schematic cause you don't understand them and how they relate to sound.
I do not see any research and development from you. Unfortunately, you appear to have simply read, and attempted to apply what someone else has written. So you have no idea if what you read is true or false.



Actually you have been taking them out of context, as I have had to correct you and ask that you not mislead the public. I have, on the other hand, requested the public to read the comments in context, usually starting at post #22, page 3.

Cheers.

I don't have time to reply to all your sentences at the moment but I will later. For now, I would like you to look at the following reply.

I compare to live instruments.

Great! Can you please share more details on how you set up the comparison rig?

 

[Positron]

Great! Can you please share more details on how you set up the comparison rig?

This has been covered several times before, including the crowd reaction. Re-read my previous posts if you do not understand, and please refrain from misleading the audience.

Cheers.

 

[Evenharmonics]

I replied several times before and also mentioned the crowd. Re-read my previous posts and please refrain from misleading the audience.

You didn't share any details on how you set up the listening comparison rig. Detail is very important because it can "make or break" when it comes to amp listening tests. So I ask you again for DETAILS, not some general description.

1. What did you use to capture the live sound so that it can be replayed?
2. Where were the microphones located and where were the speakers placed?
3. Where were the listener's positions?
4. Was the recording and listening done in same room?
5. What did you use for matching output levels?

and many more details that are critical. Can you share them?

 

[Positron]

You didn't share any details on how you set up the listening comparison rig. Detail is very important because it can "make or break" when it comes to amp listening tests. So I ask you again for DETAILS, not some general description.

1. What did you use to capture the live sound so that it can be replayed?
2. Where were the microphones located and where were the speakers placed?
3. Where were the listener's positions?
4. Was the recording and listening done in same room?
5. What did you use for matching output levels?

and many more details that are critical. Can you share them?

I see you posted a little dingy, and waited for me to reply thus attempting to sidestep #56, since you could not address, directly reply to the post. Not surprising since it involved problems with DBT testing (and other things) which is the crux of your arguement. I also suggest you read my previous posts starting with #23.
Since your sidestepping, I see your points 1-5 are again back to dbts and recordings instead of comparisons to live instruments. Your points are again irrevelant as previous posts demonstrate.

I suggest if you address my post, #56 before proceeding further.

Cheers.