Well, to tell you the truth I read a few subjective comments then turned on my 'phileFilter® and briefly scanned through the rest. Regarding distortion I only found one guy doing a wild guess with reference to some speaker I don't know:
Maybe there was more to it but I think you have to guide me more precise then. I for sure could not find any official measurements/graphs. 😉
/Magnus
Maybe there was more to it but I think you have to guide me more precise then. I for sure could not find any official measurements/graphs. 😉
/Magnus
i'm just trying to tell you that these are very serious speakers, and i know about the "philefilter".....😉
http://www.atc.gb.net/
http://www.atc.gb.net/
I have heard a lot of ATC. Once I got a chance to listen to them I wondered what all the talk was about.
Got an offer for a pair of those big dome mid´s and found a distortin graph, and it really was nothing special. It was ok but no lower than good "hifi" drivers.
Swedish Chef,
Sometimes the distortion of drivers are a little "non-intuitive" that is the distortion may not be so much lower even if you reduce output. Sure the dist will increase once you turn up the level enough due to several reasons.
If you want to read more about it SL mentions it on the site where he does the tests of midranges and tweeters.
Check out;
http://www.clofis.nl/nl/thiel/C90-T6_voorlopig.pdf
Only minor differences in the mids, while at low fr. where the coil moves more, things change.
I agree with you, more measurement data, and some kind of "standard" would be nice... won´t happen anytime soon though. Seas and Accuton are among the exceptions where they publish graphs on most drivers. What do the rest have to hide? 😉
The most serious distortion mechanism according to some speaker experts is the non linear Bl product and inductance as the coil moves in the gap. Of course the spider and suspension has non linear characteristics as well, adding compression as the coil moves further out from rest position. Using underhung motors or clever motordesigns as Scan Speak and Seas and reduce the cone travel are the tools we have to fight those mechanisms.
Another source of distortion that is not equally obvious to all people is the cone. Ther was a big thread a couple of years ago at Madisound where even SL claimed that there were no proof that a soft (non pistonic) cone/inverted dome would add distortion.
Of course that is not correct. The cone/dome adds distortion both due to the fact that it is non symmetrical and from the very basic fact that it flexes, turning mechanical energy into heat, and that function is not linear in amplitude even if they manage to get it pretty flat in Fr. these days.
Give me rigid pistonic drivers with modern low distortion motors, make sure not to push the driver to far and I´m set to go! 🙂
/Peter
Got an offer for a pair of those big dome mid´s and found a distortin graph, and it really was nothing special. It was ok but no lower than good "hifi" drivers.
Swedish Chef,
Sometimes the distortion of drivers are a little "non-intuitive" that is the distortion may not be so much lower even if you reduce output. Sure the dist will increase once you turn up the level enough due to several reasons.
If you want to read more about it SL mentions it on the site where he does the tests of midranges and tweeters.
Check out;
http://www.clofis.nl/nl/thiel/C90-T6_voorlopig.pdf
Only minor differences in the mids, while at low fr. where the coil moves more, things change.
I agree with you, more measurement data, and some kind of "standard" would be nice... won´t happen anytime soon though. Seas and Accuton are among the exceptions where they publish graphs on most drivers. What do the rest have to hide? 😉
The most serious distortion mechanism according to some speaker experts is the non linear Bl product and inductance as the coil moves in the gap. Of course the spider and suspension has non linear characteristics as well, adding compression as the coil moves further out from rest position. Using underhung motors or clever motordesigns as Scan Speak and Seas and reduce the cone travel are the tools we have to fight those mechanisms.
Another source of distortion that is not equally obvious to all people is the cone. Ther was a big thread a couple of years ago at Madisound where even SL claimed that there were no proof that a soft (non pistonic) cone/inverted dome would add distortion.
Of course that is not correct. The cone/dome adds distortion both due to the fact that it is non symmetrical and from the very basic fact that it flexes, turning mechanical energy into heat, and that function is not linear in amplitude even if they manage to get it pretty flat in Fr. these days.
Give me rigid pistonic drivers with modern low distortion motors, make sure not to push the driver to far and I´m set to go! 🙂
/Peter
Peter,
yes clearly the distortion mechanisms are so complex that using "intuition" might be completely useless. Just like quantum mechanics...😉 Thus an even greater need for measurement data!
Do you know if there are any good AES articles discussing this? That's usually a pretty good sign whether a theory holds up to real world experience and scientific observations performed on Planet Earth.
Cheers
/Magnus
yes clearly the distortion mechanisms are so complex that using "intuition" might be completely useless. Just like quantum mechanics...😉 Thus an even greater need for measurement data!
Do you know if there are any good AES articles discussing this? That's usually a pretty good sign whether a theory holds up to real world experience and scientific observations performed on Planet Earth.
Cheers
/Magnus
"Using underhung motors or clever motordesigns"
"Give me rigid pistonic drivers with modern low distortion motors, make sure not to push the driver to far and I´m set to go!"
This sounds like the new C2-90-t8 driver from Accuton.
Where the hell are they? It would be nise to at least see a picture of it.
"Give me rigid pistonic drivers with modern low distortion motors, make sure not to push the driver to far and I´m set to go!"
This sounds like the new C2-90-t8 driver from Accuton.
Where the hell are they? It would be nise to at least see a picture of it.
tbla,
it was their own designs. Both 3-way active and a two way passive if memory serves me. I know I listened to a 3-way active. The room was not perfect but not that bad either, I did excpect more though. I hope I get another chance in the future, but in the end I clearly prefer pistonic drivers.
Joule,
check kharma.com and ayonaudio.com, they use C90 in the new top of the line designs.
/Peter
it was their own designs. Both 3-way active and a two way passive if memory serves me. I know I listened to a 3-way active. The room was not perfect but not that bad either, I did excpect more though. I hope I get another chance in the future, but in the end I clearly prefer pistonic drivers.
Joule,
check kharma.com and ayonaudio.com, they use C90 in the new top of the line designs.
/Peter
Here is a good article about speaker design by John Watkinson of Celtic Audio:
http://www.celticaudio.co.uk/articles/science.pdf
You don't have to be an engineer to understand it and these guys do have a clue as to what they are doing. One of their more interesting speakers uses a phased-array of electrostatic drivers for very good directivity control. Couldn't find any info on it on their website though.
/Magnus
http://www.celticaudio.co.uk/articles/science.pdf
You don't have to be an engineer to understand it and these guys do have a clue as to what they are doing. One of their more interesting speakers uses a phased-array of electrostatic drivers for very good directivity control. Couldn't find any info on it on their website though.
/Magnus
they only give you what you feed them - and there's a lot of very bad sources out there.....almost all cdplayers sounds medeocre, but try a live feed and compare with other "monitors".......
tbla said:
This was an official demo by the Swedish/Scandinavian agent for the ATC brand. I don´t remember what source they used but they I dont think they used crap, if they got anything for brains. 🙂
I also know what differences to expect from CDP´s, having listened to a wide range of players and modified a few as well. BTW, I used the Holfi Xandra SE for some time.
I´m sure they can play loud, as can many "monitors" deisgned for the same. I thought they lacked "refinement" for a lack of better word. At the time they used the cheap Vifa textile dome and that one is less than impressive to my ears. Having Esotar quality as a reference when it comes to soft domes.
/Peter
Interesting artical Swedish chef. thanks for the link. I have a couple of coments about it tho
I have often felt, give me a well resolved two channel, one that handles spacial effect well, to a surround sound system any day. 5.1 seems to be a way to make up for the lack of engineering in a sound system. ( and to get the consumer to spend more money)
That was interesting what he said about field modulation in a fairite magnet. how ever the field lines in a typical speaker pass through a matalic (steel) yoke and ring. This should prevent the lines from moving and isolate the fairite magnet from modulation. I think?
I have often felt, give me a well resolved two channel, one that handles spacial effect well, to a surround sound system any day. 5.1 seems to be a way to make up for the lack of engineering in a sound system. ( and to get the consumer to spend more money)
That was interesting what he said about field modulation in a fairite magnet. how ever the field lines in a typical speaker pass through a matalic (steel) yoke and ring. This should prevent the lines from moving and isolate the fairite magnet from modulation. I think?
Joules,
about the field modulation in the speaker motor structure - well there is one pro sound West Coast US manufacturer that has included a few tricks to take care of that in all their woofers since the early 80's.
Hmm, I think the founder was named James B Lansing or somethin'...😉
about the field modulation in the speaker motor structure - well there is one pro sound West Coast US manufacturer that has included a few tricks to take care of that in all their woofers since the early 80's.
Hmm, I think the founder was named James B Lansing or somethin'...😉
Magnus-Whichs is the main reason why I love the sound of my subwoofer!
SFG! + shorting rings!
Il be keeping it aslong as I can-No reason to change !
First,and only subwoofer,for a long time!
🙂
SFG! + shorting rings!
Il be keeping it aslong as I can-No reason to change !
First,and only subwoofer,for a long time!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
🙂
Joules said:
I agree also.
5.1 ? Thats the old way...
The latest craze is 7.1 !
More speakers,more amps,it must be many times better!
-Only if implemented well,which in 75% of the time it wont be.
what next! 1024.1 !
I havn't finished reading all the replies in this thread yet so hopefully this isn't redundant.
Go to this site and read the definitions of linear and non-linear distortion. After I read this stuff Linkwitz' distortion measurements started to mean something to me.
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/techtalk/
You asked about using multiple drivers as a way of reducing distortion
heres a comment from SL's site
"Since non-linear distortion can always be reduced by using multiple drivers, while burst distortion remains constant, one could replace a single 21W/8554 with two 18W/8545, or with four P13WH-00 if levels are kept low. This approach is costly and quickly runs into polar response problems."
Go to this site and read the definitions of linear and non-linear distortion. After I read this stuff Linkwitz' distortion measurements started to mean something to me.
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/techtalk/
You asked about using multiple drivers as a way of reducing distortion
heres a comment from SL's site
"Since non-linear distortion can always be reduced by using multiple drivers, while burst distortion remains constant, one could replace a single 21W/8554 with two 18W/8545, or with four P13WH-00 if levels are kept low. This approach is costly and quickly runs into polar response problems."
Arghhh. I wish people wouldn't use the term "linear distortion". If it's linear, then it's not really distortion at all.dvdwmth said:
Mr Evil said:
After reading linkwitz driver measurements and not really understanding his terms I sought out a definition which I thought the original poster might find interesting. My complicity ends there. Im hardly in a position to take exception to his terminology.
Is there another more appropriate term for it.
"Linear distortion" is just bandwidth limiting and phase shift. Other than the technically incorrect names, the definitions on that site seem correct - real (non-linear) distortion adds new frequency components; "linear distortion" only alters amplitude and phase.dvdwmth said:
Still, it is a very commonly used term, even by people who should know better!😀
- Status
- Not open for further replies.