I have looked at various subs for a downfiring, small sealed actively EQ'd, stereo sub application for HT. I have considered Audiomobile Mass 12, Earthquake Magma 12 and other high excursion/low vas/power handling subs.
For the price ($119), the Audiobahn Alum12X (www.audiobahninc.com) seems to have an impressive offering, optimized for small volume: cast basket, rubber surround, aluminum cone, 16mm one-way, 3" DVC, 120oz magnet, 1000W RMS, and excellent T/S params for small sealed HT modeling.
Fs 20
Qts .4
Vas 90
Please help me.
What do these other USA subs have that China's Audiobahn doesn't? Do they justify spending 200% more. I'll be using 1 to 1.4 cubes for each sub with high power. My objective is SPL/SQ compromise. 60% theater, 40% music.
Does anyone know if 16mm is linear or excursion limit?
Michael
For the price ($119), the Audiobahn Alum12X (www.audiobahninc.com) seems to have an impressive offering, optimized for small volume: cast basket, rubber surround, aluminum cone, 16mm one-way, 3" DVC, 120oz magnet, 1000W RMS, and excellent T/S params for small sealed HT modeling.
Fs 20
Qts .4
Vas 90
Please help me.
What do these other USA subs have that China's Audiobahn doesn't? Do they justify spending 200% more. I'll be using 1 to 1.4 cubes for each sub with high power. My objective is SPL/SQ compromise. 60% theater, 40% music.
Does anyone know if 16mm is linear or excursion limit?
Michael
masterp2 said:
Michael,
All these that you mention are auto-sound drivers. Ususally lots of flash, exaggerated claims, and not great value for the money.
You should have a look at the large number of medium 12" designed for the home sub market. I have Adire Shiva and find it very good. I'd like to sell these and replace them with Stryke SAE1204s (John uses %$^^ frames so if you want to get to his home page you have to delete everything after .com/ in the URL). If you can afford the extra tariff the Lambda woofers he has (and won't have more of at anywhere near the current price) cannot be beat -- these are hand-built by Nick McKinney and use all the motor tricks of the skanning/ScanSpeak/DynaAudio drivers. Their specs might not seem as stellar as other woofers but the quality...
dave
But the application is...
Thanks Dave for your suggestions. I see it this way. And correct me if I'm innaccurate.
Those subs won't reach serious spl's for HT at the 20HZ range in a small sealed enclosure. I'll blow'em. This application requires large (linear) swept volumes and higher power capability to EQ that response, yes?
This is why I seem to feel that some high end car subs may be the best candidate for a 1 c.f. HT subwoofer. The car sub has been optimized for this very application, i.e. high linear excursion, high power handling, tiny Vas. True, most of them have an early rolloff for optimum car gain use, so I am just picking from the ones with lowest Fs and reasonable Qts, and positive reviews for home use. Perhaps one with an F10 of 20 HZ, which the audiomobile, Magma and Audiobahn have. Equalization then takes over to flatten the curve, given enough excursion and power handling.
So please poke some holes in my plans. I don't want to make a big mistake. But I need to know why these subs would not do the best job, and not why someone else's favorite drivers (in another application) is recommended. I realize that small, sealed is not the usual route in the HT, but please bear with me, it is a concession I am trying to optimize.
Michael
Thanks Dave for your suggestions. I see it this way. And correct me if I'm innaccurate.
Those subs won't reach serious spl's for HT at the 20HZ range in a small sealed enclosure. I'll blow'em. This application requires large (linear) swept volumes and higher power capability to EQ that response, yes?
This is why I seem to feel that some high end car subs may be the best candidate for a 1 c.f. HT subwoofer. The car sub has been optimized for this very application, i.e. high linear excursion, high power handling, tiny Vas. True, most of them have an early rolloff for optimum car gain use, so I am just picking from the ones with lowest Fs and reasonable Qts, and positive reviews for home use. Perhaps one with an F10 of 20 HZ, which the audiomobile, Magma and Audiobahn have. Equalization then takes over to flatten the curve, given enough excursion and power handling.
So please poke some holes in my plans. I don't want to make a big mistake. But I need to know why these subs would not do the best job, and not why someone else's favorite drivers (in another application) is recommended. I realize that small, sealed is not the usual route in the HT, but please bear with me, it is a concession I am trying to optimize.
Michael
Re: But the application is...
Forget the specs. The Shiva or the Stryke (or the Lambda) will outperform the car woofers -- particularily in a home application. The Shiva is VERY popular for cars.
I have a big *** car woof down in the lab -- real pretty but you pay for pretty by sacrificing performance.
The common small box app is to put them in a cu ft and add a Linkwitz Transform EQ to them -- you did say you were going to EQ them.
And remember if you want your woofer flat to 20 Hz it has to start its modeled roll-off a lot sooner. Otherwise with room gain you will have way to much bass.
I currently have a single Shiva in a 1.7 cu ft box with 40 W (NAD watts) on each coil and it produces bass that can be feltand not heard -- i am working on a bigger box with two woofers in push-push so that i don't have to work them as hard.
dave
masterp2 said:
Forget the specs. The Shiva or the Stryke (or the Lambda) will outperform the car woofers -- particularily in a home application. The Shiva is VERY popular for cars.
I have a big *** car woof down in the lab -- real pretty but you pay for pretty by sacrificing performance.
The common small box app is to put them in a cu ft and add a Linkwitz Transform EQ to them -- you did say you were going to EQ them.
And remember if you want your woofer flat to 20 Hz it has to start its modeled roll-off a lot sooner. Otherwise with room gain you will have way to much bass.
I currently have a single Shiva in a 1.7 cu ft box with 40 W (NAD watts) on each coil and it produces bass that can be feltand not heard -- i am working on a bigger box with two woofers in push-push so that i don't have to work them as hard.
dave
I agree with planet10 - most of the autosound subwoofers are all glitz and no performance, with huge retail markups to boot.
The exception of the ones you mentioned is the Audiomobile MASS2012 - it still has a high price tag, but it has excellent performance as well, and is far superior to a Shiva. The Audiomobile MASS series is made by TC sounds - the same people who make the fearsome HE-15 sold by Stryke.
It should also be noted that the performance of the Audiobahn and the Earthquake have not been independently measured by a 3rd party such as DUMAX - for their "xmax' measurements, they are free to quote anything from one-way linear magnetic throw, to 2-way damage-limited suspension throw. Be wary of their numbers.
The Shiva and MASS2012 have both been DUMAX verified - they are both very honestly spec'd, and will do you quite well.
I personally wouldn't go anywhere near the Magma 12 for the price, I'd MUCH rather have the MASS 2012.
It should be noted that another incredibly well-performing contender has been left off the list - the one that I personally would buy if I had to do what you're doing.
The missing driver is Blueprint's BPD1203. At $219, it represents an incredible value, and is practically designed for your application.
It has gobs of linear xmag (over 25mm, DUMAX verified), and more xsus (suspension excursion) than *any* of the above mentioned contenders. The shiva weighs in at about 20mm, ditto with the audiomobile, but the Blueprint 1203 is in a class of its own at well over 30mm one-way!
Its near-identical cousin, the 1503 (which uses an identical motor) was DUMAX tested at 25.86mm xmag, and 36.18mm xsus. The 1203 will have an identical xmag due to the same motor design, but likely a little less xsus due to the limitations of the 12" basket as far as spider diameter and depth goes. I'd estimate it to have at least 30mm one-way though. The 1503 will happily handle 1000W or more (Blueprint has hammered their '03 motor with 2000W+ doing sine sweeps and other tests, and had them come out unscathed)
Basically, if you want ultimate EQ/transformed output out of a tiny box, but with massive power requirements, pick the 1203. If you want less output, less cost, and less power requirements, go for a Shiva or any of its cousins (Stryke SAE1204, Parts express 12" DVC, etc.)
- ThingyNess
The exception of the ones you mentioned is the Audiomobile MASS2012 - it still has a high price tag, but it has excellent performance as well, and is far superior to a Shiva. The Audiomobile MASS series is made by TC sounds - the same people who make the fearsome HE-15 sold by Stryke.
It should also be noted that the performance of the Audiobahn and the Earthquake have not been independently measured by a 3rd party such as DUMAX - for their "xmax' measurements, they are free to quote anything from one-way linear magnetic throw, to 2-way damage-limited suspension throw. Be wary of their numbers.
The Shiva and MASS2012 have both been DUMAX verified - they are both very honestly spec'd, and will do you quite well.
I personally wouldn't go anywhere near the Magma 12 for the price, I'd MUCH rather have the MASS 2012.
It should be noted that another incredibly well-performing contender has been left off the list - the one that I personally would buy if I had to do what you're doing.
The missing driver is Blueprint's BPD1203. At $219, it represents an incredible value, and is practically designed for your application.
It has gobs of linear xmag (over 25mm, DUMAX verified), and more xsus (suspension excursion) than *any* of the above mentioned contenders. The shiva weighs in at about 20mm, ditto with the audiomobile, but the Blueprint 1203 is in a class of its own at well over 30mm one-way!
Its near-identical cousin, the 1503 (which uses an identical motor) was DUMAX tested at 25.86mm xmag, and 36.18mm xsus. The 1203 will have an identical xmag due to the same motor design, but likely a little less xsus due to the limitations of the 12" basket as far as spider diameter and depth goes. I'd estimate it to have at least 30mm one-way though. The 1503 will happily handle 1000W or more (Blueprint has hammered their '03 motor with 2000W+ doing sine sweeps and other tests, and had them come out unscathed)
Basically, if you want ultimate EQ/transformed output out of a tiny box, but with massive power requirements, pick the 1203. If you want less output, less cost, and less power requirements, go for a Shiva or any of its cousins (Stryke SAE1204, Parts express 12" DVC, etc.)
- ThingyNess
Yes, I have seen it.
Thanks for your help. Yes I did leave it off the list. When I modeled it, it rolled off so badly that it seemed to require too much EQ on the low end, more than I have anyway. And the power needed, I'm not sure I have that either.
I'm using a 12 band parametric (12dB limit) and NAD208. Keep in mind that I plan to drive a stereo pair. From the predicted curve, 15 dB is called for, that's got to be something like 2000+ W for full excursion and 105 dB. Even if I had the power, do I really want that kind of heat in a stuffed cubic ft? Am I on the right track?
Michael
Thanks for your help. Yes I did leave it off the list. When I modeled it, it rolled off so badly that it seemed to require too much EQ on the low end, more than I have anyway. And the power needed, I'm not sure I have that either.
I'm using a 12 band parametric (12dB limit) and NAD208. Keep in mind that I plan to drive a stereo pair. From the predicted curve, 15 dB is called for, that's got to be something like 2000+ W for full excursion and 105 dB. Even if I had the power, do I really want that kind of heat in a stuffed cubic ft? Am I on the right track?
Michael
http://fraser.sfu.ca/~rbc/1503dumax.jpg
Also, you might want to read:
http://fraser.sfu.ca/~rbc/bpd1503chat.txt
Also, you might want to read:
http://fraser.sfu.ca/~rbc/bpd1503chat.txt
Conclusion on the 1503
What I found is similar to the 1203. It really need the LT. At 20HZ (Q=.7) you need about 15-16 db of EQ and 4000W dynamic to utilize full Xmax (110dB at 20). Agree?
Anybody out there ever start a fire like this?
Conclusion, I'll never bottom out! More excursion than can be utilized (for practical purposes) without an LT. Sure it's nice to know it's there. But is there a downside to having an excursion you can't utilize? Just a thought.
I think I'd prefer something without as dramatic a rolloff. With half the power, I can still get 105 dB with the audiomobile, fully utilizing the linear (with another 10mm non-linear room to spare) excursion. Maybe someone would controvert my conclusion with practical application with the Blueprint?
Michael
What I found is similar to the 1203. It really need the LT. At 20HZ (Q=.7) you need about 15-16 db of EQ and 4000W dynamic to utilize full Xmax (110dB at 20). Agree?
Anybody out there ever start a fire like this?
Conclusion, I'll never bottom out! More excursion than can be utilized (for practical purposes) without an LT. Sure it's nice to know it's there. But is there a downside to having an excursion you can't utilize? Just a thought.
I think I'd prefer something without as dramatic a rolloff. With half the power, I can still get 105 dB with the audiomobile, fully utilizing the linear (with another 10mm non-linear room to spare) excursion. Maybe someone would controvert my conclusion with practical application with the Blueprint?
Michael
http://www.audiomobileinc.com/images/x-files/dumax-mass2012s24.gif
I don't know where you get your numbers, but the audiomobile doesn't have any suspension throw left at all when it exceeds xmax.
As a matter of fact, it's the suspension that limits the excursion on the MASS 2012, rather than the motor.
Note that the BPD 1503 has near DOUBLE the xsus of the audiomobile woofer, not to mention that if you look at the BL vs. X graph, the motor is still running smooth (albeit with less BL) way out past 35mm, with no steep drop-offs as you exceed xmag like underhung motors tend to exhibit.
- Rick
PS:
Note that if you get 5dB less output with half the power with the audiomobile, then the Blueprint would in theory be the better choice anyway - you only get 3dB for each doubling of power to the driver at the best of times, assuming no thermal compression at all. If what you said is correct, then at the same power, the BPD1203 would have a 2dB advantage over the Audiomobile.
I don't know where you get your numbers, but the audiomobile doesn't have any suspension throw left at all when it exceeds xmax.
As a matter of fact, it's the suspension that limits the excursion on the MASS 2012, rather than the motor.
Note that the BPD 1503 has near DOUBLE the xsus of the audiomobile woofer, not to mention that if you look at the BL vs. X graph, the motor is still running smooth (albeit with less BL) way out past 35mm, with no steep drop-offs as you exceed xmag like underhung motors tend to exhibit.
- Rick
PS:
Note that if you get 5dB less output with half the power with the audiomobile, then the Blueprint would in theory be the better choice anyway - you only get 3dB for each doubling of power to the driver at the best of times, assuming no thermal compression at all. If what you said is correct, then at the same power, the BPD1203 would have a 2dB advantage over the Audiomobile.
"Note that if you get 5dB less output with half the power with the audiomobile, then the Blueprint would in theory be the better choice anyway"
I didn't think about what I was saying. What I mean is, with my hardware, amps, eq's etc, 105 is all I'm gonna get, even if I have a driver capable of 110. It would be underpowered in my house.
I didn't think about what I was saying. What I mean is, with my hardware, amps, eq's etc, 105 is all I'm gonna get, even if I have a driver capable of 110. It would be underpowered in my house.
Even if you only have the amplifier power right now to hit 105, that doesn't necessarily mean you won't be able to get more later.
Also, it's good to get as much power handling as you possibly can in a driver, because thermal compression is a very real issue, and the further you stay away from the driver's max power rating, the better you'll be. Due to the BPD '03 motor's huge VC and huge top plate, it has more heatsinking capability than almost any other motor out there. The audiomobile on the other hand has a large top plate, but a relatively tiny voice coil - makes it much more difficult for it to dissipate the heat effectively.
As for the blueprint, a linkwitz transform would work well, as would a parametric or 1/3 octave eq - they're just different means to a very similar end.
Also, all other things being equal, it's always good to have xmax and xsus in reserve. The farther you stay away from (the dumax defined) xmax and xsus, the less distortion the driver will produce.
As for the BPD '03 sound quality, I haven't had a chance to own one myself (I had one on order, but had to cancel due to financial difficulties), but all accounts say that it sounds exceedingly good. To be fair to the Audiomobile MASS2012, all reports I've heard say the same about it as well.
In the end, subwoofer sound quality, more than anything else in the audio world, comes down to the alignment, enclosure used, and specs of the driver. We're not asking for huge amounts of bandwidth out of a subwoofer driver, nor are we operating them anywhere near their primary cone breakup mode, (assuming a 12/24dB/octave x/o near 80hz) so assuring a very large linear operating envelope is your best bet to achieving high sound quality.
Also, it's good to get as much power handling as you possibly can in a driver, because thermal compression is a very real issue, and the further you stay away from the driver's max power rating, the better you'll be. Due to the BPD '03 motor's huge VC and huge top plate, it has more heatsinking capability than almost any other motor out there. The audiomobile on the other hand has a large top plate, but a relatively tiny voice coil - makes it much more difficult for it to dissipate the heat effectively.
As for the blueprint, a linkwitz transform would work well, as would a parametric or 1/3 octave eq - they're just different means to a very similar end.
Also, all other things being equal, it's always good to have xmax and xsus in reserve. The farther you stay away from (the dumax defined) xmax and xsus, the less distortion the driver will produce.
As for the BPD '03 sound quality, I haven't had a chance to own one myself (I had one on order, but had to cancel due to financial difficulties), but all accounts say that it sounds exceedingly good. To be fair to the Audiomobile MASS2012, all reports I've heard say the same about it as well.
In the end, subwoofer sound quality, more than anything else in the audio world, comes down to the alignment, enclosure used, and specs of the driver. We're not asking for huge amounts of bandwidth out of a subwoofer driver, nor are we operating them anywhere near their primary cone breakup mode, (assuming a 12/24dB/octave x/o near 80hz) so assuring a very large linear operating envelope is your best bet to achieving high sound quality.
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