Hi All,
I have just joined this forum and saw this thread after a bit of cruising. Given the length of this thread, I did not read every response so please excuse this input if it is redundant to what has already been said.
First, when I first started purchasing audio equipment way back when, I (an arrogant skeptic) believed that all electronical components were the same. And to that, wire is wire so how could different wire sound different.
Over the last few years as I have gotten better equipment and experimented with different speaker cables, I am now in the believer camp. I also pal around two other audiofreaks and we have heard differences in speaker cables. Did we measure it? No, but we could all hear it. Was it scientific? No, we didn't do live switching between A and B but we did play A and then play it on B.
A final thought. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about setting up test conditions to measure the difference. But could it be that we don't have the right technology or theory to measure with? Maybe the technology or the underlying theory isn't there yet? As an analogy, string theory in physics is the popular replacement for relativity (and gravity). But we didn't have string theory until recently. The current measurement theory and technology works for what it is intended to do but maybe it isn't capable to provide the answer we are looking for. Just a thought.
Phil
I have just joined this forum and saw this thread after a bit of cruising. Given the length of this thread, I did not read every response so please excuse this input if it is redundant to what has already been said.
First, when I first started purchasing audio equipment way back when, I (an arrogant skeptic) believed that all electronical components were the same. And to that, wire is wire so how could different wire sound different.
Over the last few years as I have gotten better equipment and experimented with different speaker cables, I am now in the believer camp. I also pal around two other audiofreaks and we have heard differences in speaker cables. Did we measure it? No, but we could all hear it. Was it scientific? No, we didn't do live switching between A and B but we did play A and then play it on B.
A final thought. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about setting up test conditions to measure the difference. But could it be that we don't have the right technology or theory to measure with? Maybe the technology or the underlying theory isn't there yet? As an analogy, string theory in physics is the popular replacement for relativity (and gravity). But we didn't have string theory until recently. The current measurement theory and technology works for what it is intended to do but maybe it isn't capable to provide the answer we are looking for. Just a thought.
Phil
Analog In AZ said:
String theory is also a mathematical conceit, currently unprovable and untestable. A pretty set of equations, no doubt, but reality?
Better you than I...I wouldn't know where to start...being as I'm a flatlander..macgyver10 said:
macgyver10 said:
Here is the dissipation within a wire as a result of two orthogonal signals.
Note that as the DC current is increased, the dissipation within the wire increases in an interesting fashion.
With no dc component, the power peak dissipation occurs during the maximum swing of the signal, this at twice the signal rate. Note also the peak dissipation is 50 milliwatts, and the minimum is zero.
Now add 1 ampere dc. The peak dissipation is now 200 mW, the minimum is still zero. But look where the peak and minimum losses occur. With no dc, minima is every 180 degrees. With 1 ampere, minima is every 360.
Now..consider this wire while it is pushing into a single load resistor. The dissipation within the resistor will have the EXACT same form that the dissipation within the wire is having. So far, so good.
Here's the catch...using this wire, feed a crossover node composed of a simple inductor/capacitor set, each feeding an 8 ohm resistor.
The dc dissipation on the low pass branch should be dc, of course. The AC dissipation of the hp resistor should be just ac dissipation, sin squared. It's dissipation should look exactly like the zero current dissipation curve here, just scaled.
So , when feeding the branch circuit, the wire dissipates at peak every 360 degrees, while the ac load peak is every 180. The loss spectra has changed because the wire is feeding a branch node???
If each resistor is fed by independent wires, THOSE wires will dissipate exactly like their respective loads.
I predict there will be more questions..😀
Cheers, John😀
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I think he has just adjusted to what he has experienced.macgyver10 said:
A construct used to help model the universe. Correct perhaps, maybe not. But it will be tested.pinkmouse said:
Some guy lectured on it here a while back, really really cool lecture. Gates, I think his name was.
Another came here and spoke at length on the question: where does the proton get it's mass, if it is made of massless particles???
Talk about ya geekdom.....ya can't appreciate it unless you live in it..whew..
Cheers, John
jneutron said:
Sure, I just wanted to point out that what comes out of the highr reaches of particle/astrophysics isn't necessarily true science. 😉
Sounds like you have some good stuff going on there.
jneutron said:
Which as I've just experienced, can be very misleading!
Nobody so far, has taken on the psycho/social aspects of which cables "sound" better.
It's been my experience that the "macro" variable in deciding which component in a stereo system sounds the "best" is which one somebody WANTS to sounds the best.
The "micro" effects of various engineering methods pales in comparison.
Many audiophiles eschew the virtues of scientific process and engineering, however they forget that their hobby wouldn't even exist had some engineers not "worked the math" to begin with!
Hi macgyver10,
I've had equipment brought in for modification that the customer swore was working properly, that didn't meet spec. After correcting the fault the customer is normally blown away by the sound difference. Then I tell him what I fixed. 😉 At this point they are questioning everything, since they thought the equipment was okay, but they had been listening to broken equipment for years.
-Chris
That is so true it's scary.
I've had equipment brought in for modification that the customer swore was working properly, that didn't meet spec. After correcting the fault the customer is normally blown away by the sound difference. Then I tell him what I fixed. 😉 At this point they are questioning everything, since they thought the equipment was okay, but they had been listening to broken equipment for years.
-Chris
anatech said:
Hi Chris. In my personal experience it's dismayingly not. I wish it were. Use a non-magnetic Teflon cap interstage because specs, manufacturer's usage and everything you read says 'it's the one'. Yet for me silver mica beats it, even knowing it's DA issues. By rep silver cables trump everything, yet at best it leaves me cold or indifferent. Regardless of whether I'm halucinating or unconciously trying to build a very expensive Aural Exciter, I only wish my expectations guided my preferences. My audio life would be so much easier and productive in a life of Orange Drops. 😉
Hi rdf,
My own experiences guide me to certain parts, and circuit configurations. But no a wholesale replacement as some people do. Then there is "the green marker" crowd.
What I am saying is that the average consumer is guided more than hipe than having their auditiory organs excited properly.
This is not true of everyone, but I think it's accurate enough for the masses. How else can you explain what is on the market today?
-Chris
My own experiences guide me to certain parts, and circuit configurations. But no a wholesale replacement as some people do. Then there is "the green marker" crowd.
What I am saying is that the average consumer is guided more than hipe than having their auditiory organs excited properly.
This is not true of everyone, but I think it's accurate enough for the masses. How else can you explain what is on the market today?
-Chris
anatech said:
I'm not even saying it's necessarily a bad thing, if it doesn't hurt anybody, and you derive enjoyment from it. I'm just saying that it has more akin to religion that I personally feel comfortable with.
I have friends who seem to get a disproportionate amount of joy from removing parts from amps and claiming it made them better. But to me, this wouldn't work very well with, say, their Television.
Somehow that logic isn't allowed when it's "the church of audio". But their joy, perhaps, is what matters more?
Well, you bring up a good example with green markers. Hands up everyone here who still religiously applies it or knows people who do, or having once bought Peter Belt product returns to the well year after year. Still demagnetizing aluminum CDs? Part of it is perspective, people read of these out-there products and paint 'the masses' with the same brush. I don't believe it's true. I keep reading how these people are legion yet never meet them in real life or even run across them here. The clowns dropping $10K on a record puck get far more representation in print than in the population.
When it comes to changing significant components like cables and caps, and subscribing to the belief RF interactions can impact the audio domain, the range of possibilities are so overwhelming that any one explanation such as 'expectation' seems to me more a comfort notion. I mentioned earlier how replacing a 3 uF screen bypass with a much larger one destabilized a circuit and threw it into oscillation. Most home consumers don't own scopes, just we sickies. FWIW I'm far from believing the reports of sonic skies clearing that I read so often here and elsewhere. I just don't believe expectation has the explanatory power everyone wishes. You could say the expectation that expectation explains all is expectation fullfilment. If you wanted to be a real pain that is.
When it comes to changing significant components like cables and caps, and subscribing to the belief RF interactions can impact the audio domain, the range of possibilities are so overwhelming that any one explanation such as 'expectation' seems to me more a comfort notion. I mentioned earlier how replacing a 3 uF screen bypass with a much larger one destabilized a circuit and threw it into oscillation. Most home consumers don't own scopes, just we sickies. FWIW I'm far from believing the reports of sonic skies clearing that I read so often here and elsewhere. I just don't believe expectation has the explanatory power everyone wishes. You could say the expectation that expectation explains all is expectation fullfilment. If you wanted to be a real pain that is.
I don't expect that expectation explains all, but I DO believe that it has a much larger effect on what we experience than is given credit.
This isn't just restricted to audio either.
Humans are much more alike that we care to admit to ourselves, and performers like magicians, psychics, naturopaths, televangelists and marketers know this very well.
Most of us are surprised when Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty disappear for exactly the same reasons. Understand the reason, and you can uncover the "trick".
That's all I'm trying to say...
Like we've been discussing all along, there might be effects that we just haven't thought to devise tests for yet. Some of these effects might actually be heard by some people, but many of us doubt that. Let's keep looking for what it might be and test for it, then we can make some progress in the engineering.
This isn't just restricted to audio either.
Humans are much more alike that we care to admit to ourselves, and performers like magicians, psychics, naturopaths, televangelists and marketers know this very well.
Most of us are surprised when Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty disappear for exactly the same reasons. Understand the reason, and you can uncover the "trick".
That's all I'm trying to say...
Like we've been discussing all along, there might be effects that we just haven't thought to devise tests for yet. Some of these effects might actually be heard by some people, but many of us doubt that. Let's keep looking for what it might be and test for it, then we can make some progress in the engineering.
The Statue of Liberty thing was trivially easy. Think turntable.
rdf, don't be knockin' Orange Drops. The 715P are pretty darn good and, unlike a lot of the expensive audiophile caps, aren't microphonic.
rdf, don't be knockin' Orange Drops. The 715P are pretty darn good and, unlike a lot of the expensive audiophile caps, aren't microphonic.
SY said:
Exactly, which kind of illustrates my point. Most of us EXPECT it to be complicated, which obscures our ability to reason out the truth.
As blokes, we tend to joke with the female of the species when they spend lots of money on wrinkle creams and suchlike. They are convinced they work, yet there is little or no scientific evidence that they perform as they alledge. Should we be quite so cynical, or just be happy that they feel good?
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