tomtt said:
The article is quite interesting and thorough, thanks for posting it. I will take several re-readings to absorb it all.
I never knew that signal propagation in a conductor is so slow. If it is, and is also frequency dependant, that opens a whole can of worms. 🙁 The article does seem to favor insulated multistrand cable, so all the CAT5 fans will find validation. Certainly bad terminations and mismatched impedances can easily be seen in video and computer graphic signals at frequencies not far above the audio range. The results are seen as ringing and reflections. It's a common problem.
It was pleasing to read the beginning of the article "Jean Hiraga, Robert Fulton, and others first made us aware of the subject in the mid-1970s." I did a good bit of work with Mr. Hiraga in the 1980s. The man really knows his stuff. Jean Hiraga puts together by far, very far, the best sounding audio systems I have ever heard. Hiraga is a no nonsense guy, and would not use "fancy" cables if he didn't think there was some benefit. As I remember, he tended to use small gauge stranded cables, often with individual insulation. FWIW.
I'll have to agree dfdye that investing large sums of money into cables before investing money into speakers/drivers and room treatment is silly. The payoff just won't be there. But many do it, because they think it's an easy fix.
Want to buy better cable:
Suggest that you would like to hear the cable in action before committing yourself. As you walk to the demo room with the salesperson, come up with 'spontaneous' bright idea - suggest that you swap the cables, and if the salesperson can correctly identify the 'super cable' that s/he so desperately wants you to purchase, then you will do so. Naturally, you will want to make the swap several times, and the salesperson will have to get it right at least 75% of the time.
There is every chance that the packet will never be opened, the comparison never done, and you will save a bunch of money. There is nothing dishonest about what you are doing - you simply want (and are entitled to) verification that the cable will make a difference, and if the salesperson is unwilling to participate in the test, s/he knows something that s/he hasn't told you!
I agree that speakers are by far the most limiting factors in most hi-fi setups and even audiophile speakers can be improved significantly while cables can't - all they do is conduct electrons (and they do this rather well). Speakers a a completely different kettle of fish.
Suggest that you would like to hear the cable in action before committing yourself. As you walk to the demo room with the salesperson, come up with 'spontaneous' bright idea - suggest that you swap the cables, and if the salesperson can correctly identify the 'super cable' that s/he so desperately wants you to purchase, then you will do so. Naturally, you will want to make the swap several times, and the salesperson will have to get it right at least 75% of the time.
There is every chance that the packet will never be opened, the comparison never done, and you will save a bunch of money. There is nothing dishonest about what you are doing - you simply want (and are entitled to) verification that the cable will make a difference, and if the salesperson is unwilling to participate in the test, s/he knows something that s/he hasn't told you!
I agree that speakers are by far the most limiting factors in most hi-fi setups and even audiophile speakers can be improved significantly while cables can't - all they do is conduct electrons (and they do this rather well). Speakers a a completely different kettle of fish.
Hi guys,
I am sorry because I have allergy with something like audiophile.
I am an electrical man anyway, and something to worry about cables at low frequency (sound included) at low voltage (amplifier output included) is the only the cross section of conductor. Consider that the cable is used as normal condition (you are not use cables at 1km at wounded, don't you?).
This is the end of my statement about cable for speaker.
C'mon guys, use science not your ego. For me tell the truth is more important even it is hurt. It is pain when we loose but it is sweet when the truth is covered.
anyway peace and love from Bentley, Perth WA,
cheers, I would not to hurt somebody, really.
kartino
I am sorry because I have allergy with something like audiophile.
I am an electrical man anyway, and something to worry about cables at low frequency (sound included) at low voltage (amplifier output included) is the only the cross section of conductor. Consider that the cable is used as normal condition (you are not use cables at 1km at wounded, don't you?).
This is the end of my statement about cable for speaker.
C'mon guys, use science not your ego. For me tell the truth is more important even it is hurt. It is pain when we loose but it is sweet when the truth is covered.
anyway peace and love from Bentley, Perth WA,
cheers, I would not to hurt somebody, really.
kartino
"Note the frequency dependence of á, â, and v—All are significant at audio frequencies!!! At 1kHz, the velocity is just 1/25 of the velocity of sound in air!"
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/index1.html
Does this bozo really claim that the speed of sound in air (roughly 340m/s) is 25 times faster than a 1kHz signal in a copper wire? Does this bozo know that the speed of sound in copper is faster than the speed of sound in air?
Finally I know why the telephone never was a success and why the Internet, while a great idea, never would work.
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/index1.html
Does this bozo really claim that the speed of sound in air (roughly 340m/s) is 25 times faster than a 1kHz signal in a copper wire? Does this bozo know that the speed of sound in copper is faster than the speed of sound in air?
Finally I know why the telephone never was a success and why the Internet, while a great idea, never would work.
Hi Dave,
Now if I can remember your post. Wow, what an active thread!!
Nice setup. I do use CAT-5 for 70V lines and paging horns when I don't have a choice. It works, but I'm never happy about the idea. The higher load impedance favours these cables (current is lower).
I like your constructed cables. Great for carpets. You can also get a fine strand copper 18 GA in many electronic supply shops (the little ones that sell speakers etc...). That stuff works well and it's very flexible.
Hi macgyver10,
-Chris
Now if I can remember your post. Wow, what an active thread!!
Nice setup. I do use CAT-5 for 70V lines and paging horns when I don't have a choice. It works, but I'm never happy about the idea. The higher load impedance favours these cables (current is lower).
I like your constructed cables. Great for carpets. You can also get a fine strand copper 18 GA in many electronic supply shops (the little ones that sell speakers etc...). That stuff works well and it's very flexible.
Hi macgyver10,
Except the re-bar in the concrete! 😉 But your current levels are in fact very, very low. You may be picking up some HF noise too, but I can't say. If you ever run the test again, try to drive some more current down the cable. Maybe a Krell or something. Some interesting things my pop up. Who knows?
-Chris
phn: There was a reason that Hawksford couldn't get this stuff published in real journals- it was wrong and contradicted by experiment (hey, ADSL doesn't work!).
Trivial details like that won't stop Stereophile and its credulous audience...
Trivial details like that won't stop Stereophile and its credulous audience...
Hi SY,
Didn't even bother reading the article. The name "Stereophile" says enough right there.
A real article is going to hurt sales. 😉
-Chris
Didn't even bother reading the article. The name "Stereophile" says enough right there.
A real article is going to hurt sales. 😉
-Chris
Hi Al,
I read the first page. All I can say is that they can stand on their very consistant record. (that too! <LP>).
-Chris 😉
I read the first page. All I can say is that they can stand on their very consistant record. (that too! <LP>).
-Chris 😉
Johan Potgieter said:
It is not possible to measure the inductance of one lead. The problem is the return path.
Johan Potgieter said:
Zip inductance typically runs .18 to .2 uH per foot.
Cheers, John
anatech said:
Aha, give the man a star.
There is no way in the world they measured accurately across a .22 ohm resistor..field collapse across it completely swamps the drive voltage..They need to go back to school..😉
Cheers, John
tomtt said:
I do not consider the incorrect application of the skin depth approximation equation to a pair of magnetic wires, to be "proof".
The basis of that article is entirely in error. If one makes a conceptual error in the initial assumptions, then everything written after that error is incorrect.
That article should be relegated to the dustbin of history.
Cheers, John
koolkid731 said:
It is not a physics "treatise". It is a non peer reviewed article based on the inaccurate use of skin theory. And, there are quite a few flaws.
Cheers, John
panomaniac said:
The prop along the wire is not at those silly speeds. It is at 1/sqr(LC), this being a large fraction of lightspeed.
phn said:
Yes, he is claiming this. And yes, he probably knows that the speed of sound in copper is faster than that of air.
His calculations of propagation of a TEM wave in copper is indeed correct. However, this propagation is orthogonal to the signal content, and this orthogonal component is simply absorbed within the conductor. This is simple EMP theory, not like it's rocket science or sumptin.
The bulk of his assumptions were just incorrect.
Cheers, John
soongsc said:
Like a bad rash..😉
I cannot believe how many posts happened here since friday..Holy moley..
Cheers, John
pinkmouse said:
Nah, it's not improper judgement. I wouldn't listen to anything the Pope has to say. If the premise is a lie, how can the deduction be anything but a lie?
I have never read anything in Stereophile (online) that did not contain lie, contradiction, logical fallacy and/or opinion masquerading as fact. Everything I have read has been dishonest. And I skimmed through this piece with the sole purpose of finding lie.
But the real problem here is that Stereophile is an authority. Not on grounds of merit, but on grounds of power. The Pope uses the Bible as authority on truth. Audiophiles use Stereophile and Hiraga. Those are the problems of the world--our willingness to accept lie.
Just recently I read somebody on this forum (this thread?) say that it took centuries to prove that earth is flat. That is simply not true. First the question has to be asked. Back in the old days when nobody travelled farther than the nearest village or marketplace, it wasn't relevant if earth is flat or round. Once the question was asked, it was fairly easily answered. The thing that stood in the way was not lack of proof, but conviction.
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