Placebo...man, you are right, most people are impressed by size and design...so they(we) could just have something fancy, and be happy with it...is that what you are saying...that a vast majority of people are not able to judge by themselves what they like...well, you could be right 
btw, here we could also talk about the influence of group pressure, in general
btw, here we could also talk about the influence of group pressure, in general
tinitus said:
That's what I've saying all along. You believe what you hear. That's the point.
Just like those people that witnessed an accident and were asked 2 weeks later about the color of the ambulance at the accident site. The ones that said it was red really believed what they saw, and were dead sure that the others that said it was yellow were deluded.
Until it was revealed that there never had been an ambulance at the accident. That really pissed them off 😉
Jan Didden
Pan said:
Wrong. There was a time that people BELIEVED, strongly, honestly, because it was clear to see, that the earth was flat. That's the point.
Jan Didden
Jan, you continue to make flawed assumptions with wrongly placed examples that has nothing to do with audio
People who are deliberately fooled by giving them medicine that doesnt work...well, sure it proves the effect of placbo...but is a totally different thing, and nothing to do with audio tests...I think you are overdoing it
People who are deliberately fooled by giving them medicine that doesnt work...well, sure it proves the effect of placbo...but is a totally different thing, and nothing to do with audio tests...I think you are overdoing it
john curl said:
sq225917 said:
An inspired question.
Hoist with his own petard!
ROFLMAO.
Holed below the waterline. I just can't resist those old military aphorisms. He. He.
w
In my own defense, I do, of course, listen to my own amps, BUT not usually while designing them. However, I find that letting others, whom I trust for their hearing judgement, is much more effective, and removes DESIGNER BIAS from the equation. Please learn from this.
john curl said:
I agree it's good to hear others opinion also on a new design but I can also not quite understand what the issue is about doing one's own listening.
If you listen to different ideas to decide which sound best, what bias can there be? Further, I've designed my amplifier to sound the way I like it because it is my amplifier. Interestingly, it measures very well and everybody that heard it like it also. And yes even small changes can make quite noticable differences in the sound (while maintaining a flat freq response), I believe it is the priviledge of a designer to decide when he is happy with the sound of his creation.
André
bear said:
Hi Bear,
Here is an infamous article:
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf
Here is a useful bibliography:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_peri.htm
I am tracking down some of these articles, and hope to make them available to people here, for their reading pleasure. 😎
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf
Seems all correct scores are close to 50% all around...interestingly the one with lowest correct scores is Pioneer vs Levinson, only 25% hits...a Levinson with japanese sound
Seems all correct scores are close to 50% all around...interestingly the one with lowest correct scores is Pioneer vs Levinson, only 25% hits...a Levinson with japanese sound
Oh I see, BIAS is something that DESIGNERS need to protect themselves against, but is something that BUYERS can safely IGNORE.
Beware of salesmen masquerading as engineers.
w
Beware of salesmen masquerading as engineers.
w
tinitus said:
Well, possibly I am, but what are then the flawed assumptions?
And no, I wasn't talking about audio per se. I thought we were discussing the differences of what one would perceive vs what the objective reality is.
You seem to dismiss that placebo effect, but isn't it very, very powerful? Suppose you have a headache, and you get a placebo but are told that it is real medicine. What do you know, your headache goes away. Think about that. Your 'believe' actually makes your headache go away, and restore whatever was wrong to give you the headache to begin with. Isn't that *extremely* powerfull?
Now that you know how extremely powerfull these phenomena are, how can you make sure that in other cases of 'believe' and perception, you're not affected by it?
Jan Didden
🙂 Sure sure, you are right, but just remember that because something is proved to work that way, it doesnt mean it will be like that in any case, like some unavoidable law of nature...I dont suppose everyone can be healed by placebo medicine 🙂
tinitus said:
Right. If an apple falls down because of gravity, that doesn't proof that a pear would also fall down. Except when there is so much proof and evidence that in ALL cases things fall down becaus of gravity, that I am ready to bet this years salary that the next pear I let go will move down. That, in fact, it IS an unavoidable law of nature.
That is actually the case regarding perception and processing of sensory information toward a perceived situation. Its just that most people have no idea that anything is going on in this respect at all.
And then janneman comes along and says: "haha, your playing tricks on yourself". It is a tribute to the openmindedness of the people like you on this forum that they stop to read my posts in the first place 😉 .
Jan Didden
Jan, you are very good at twisting things😉
Next time I have a severe headache I must remember to order some placebo medicine
Next time I have a severe headache I must remember to order some placebo medicine
tinitus said:
Well, I try not to; I try to look fom different sides. But my wiring is the same as yours, so I am also playing tricks on myself. But I did mean what I said.
Shall we leave it at that? I think we both did some thinking, and I don't want to press my luck 😉
Jan Didden
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