Pano,
You are up early..... Or is it you are up late?
OK, this is an important question.
So based on this thread, has anybody decided to change camps?
I bet not! So why everytime a thread gets started like this, do we take the bait and then beat a dead horse to death? All the while digging in and making no movement from our camps.
Most of you guys work real well together here on so many projects, moving them forward and learning together. Most of the time these projects are the better despite the fact you have people from both camps on them.
So rather than wasting time on this type of subject, stick with the threads that keep you working on something good instead of dividing you down the middle.
I feel this hobby and some of its perceptions are mostly a very personal thing. I understand a common trusted baseline is required to make progress on group projects and discussions. But these type threads don't do anything to establish that baseline, only annoy.
Maybe these threads should be discouraged, UNLESS they lead somewhere that will truly help establish more of that baseline and have an actual destination. Otherwise this can go on forever AND nothing will change other than forming an opinion on someone from the other camp that may affect how we work together in the future.
So until the day we can participate in a thread like this with an actual destination, and how we should always end these types of discussions.....
Can't we just agree to disagree? (on volatile subjects like this)
Maybe the next amp festival in SF should spend all the time (if necessary) to this subject and cable sound differences. Hopefully putting this to bed because both camps will attend and then have to look each other in the eye if they should disagree after that. I mean you think that if it were defined properly, something could be proven to both camps on the spot and it would be DONE. Or maybe a third (middle) position will be defined.
But what do I know, I'm just the 800 pound gorilla in the thread.
Regards//Keith
You are up early..... Or is it you are up late?
OK, this is an important question.
So based on this thread, has anybody decided to change camps?
I bet not! So why everytime a thread gets started like this, do we take the bait and then beat a dead horse to death? All the while digging in and making no movement from our camps.
Most of you guys work real well together here on so many projects, moving them forward and learning together. Most of the time these projects are the better despite the fact you have people from both camps on them.
So rather than wasting time on this type of subject, stick with the threads that keep you working on something good instead of dividing you down the middle.
I feel this hobby and some of its perceptions are mostly a very personal thing. I understand a common trusted baseline is required to make progress on group projects and discussions. But these type threads don't do anything to establish that baseline, only annoy.
Maybe these threads should be discouraged, UNLESS they lead somewhere that will truly help establish more of that baseline and have an actual destination. Otherwise this can go on forever AND nothing will change other than forming an opinion on someone from the other camp that may affect how we work together in the future.
So until the day we can participate in a thread like this with an actual destination, and how we should always end these types of discussions.....
Can't we just agree to disagree? (on volatile subjects like this)
Maybe the next amp festival in SF should spend all the time (if necessary) to this subject and cable sound differences. Hopefully putting this to bed because both camps will attend and then have to look each other in the eye if they should disagree after that. I mean you think that if it were defined properly, something could be proven to both camps on the spot and it would be DONE. Or maybe a third (middle) position will be defined.
But what do I know, I'm just the 800 pound gorilla in the thread.
Regards//Keith
KP11520 said:
Keith
I appreciate the conciliatory tone of your remarks, and your reminder that we CAN cooperate fruitfully.
Unfortunately I view some of what you say as defeatism, or internalised oppression.
The whole point is that there ARE 2 camps, and as long as there is no concensus, there will be no true progress.
What we have now is people taking the bearings out of wheels on the basis of 'minimalism'.
Engineering is not ideology. There is no room for 'isms'. Marxism. Thatcherism. Liberalism. (I couldn't think of a famous Liberal) Are we going to be applying these to audio design next?
w
bear said:
That does not seem to be possible. As far as I can tell the paper belongs and has belonged to the AES and they want $20.00 for it.
Hi w,
That's why I suggested that the next amp festival address this. I believe the only way to settle this is with a well defined methodology, where both camps agree is fair and then all get in a room together. NOBODY gets out until the truth is revealed and/or better defined. Agreeing on the definitions and methodology will be next major obsticle. YIKES. Wake me up when it's over.
Knowing when and WHERE to pick your fights is the key to success. THIS thread method will provide no success in matters like this (it has been going around since this forum started just like cables and I see no movement). To me threads like this could be called "Thread Bombs."
With topics like this, maybe the best way to open one is only when some new irrefutable information is now easily accessed and available.
I am certainly not suggesting defeatism or any other ism or spasm, I am saying lets get smart and move this forward to an arena where this can actually get settled. Engineering needs to be done in a logical way and I don't think that always applies in subjects like this so let's take it to the dungeon, torture chamber, lab, together... whatever. Let's get to the Finalism.
Whoa, Do you know what I mean?
Regards//Keith
That's why I suggested that the next amp festival address this. I believe the only way to settle this is with a well defined methodology, where both camps agree is fair and then all get in a room together. NOBODY gets out until the truth is revealed and/or better defined. Agreeing on the definitions and methodology will be next major obsticle. YIKES. Wake me up when it's over.
Knowing when and WHERE to pick your fights is the key to success. THIS thread method will provide no success in matters like this (it has been going around since this forum started just like cables and I see no movement). To me threads like this could be called "Thread Bombs."
With topics like this, maybe the best way to open one is only when some new irrefutable information is now easily accessed and available.
I am certainly not suggesting defeatism or any other ism or spasm, I am saying lets get smart and move this forward to an arena where this can actually get settled. Engineering needs to be done in a logical way and I don't think that always applies in subjects like this so let's take it to the dungeon, torture chamber, lab, together... whatever. Let's get to the Finalism.
Whoa, Do you know what I mean?
Regards//Keith
KP11520 said:
Admittedly this thread is very short on good references and long on expanding hot air, but I was unaware of the GedLee Metric, which does seem very worthwhile, though without the reading the actual paper it's hard to tell. It’s not clear to me what actual peer reviewed research has been done on these topics. I’m having trouble locating anything and no one on this thread seems to be able to post links to any, which make one wonder about several things.
#1 look it up yourself
Laura Elaine Lewis..dont;' know her new married name so I have no idea what thesis is under! she started at Ga state and Mercer finished it in Detroit, MI
I do not think it outright claimed that all blind test were inaccurate and I do not know the final output of her thesis.. but it entailed a broad range of test subjects and yes the results wee that blind testing induced stress and affected the resulsts..
when I get time i;'ll tell you about the"hearing" test we did..
shot holes all in the abx and blind testing.. not sure if she put that in thesis or not.. I'll call her if she'll talk to me and see if I can get a copy
yes drug co use DBT.. I was a drug rep in my youger daze and my my current spouse is now.
lets say most drug co. testing is a crap shoot at best and you only get the info they want you to hear.. how else to you explain that a drug was only 20% better that a sugar pill (placebo)..LMAO..
if you ever read the full test reports you'd be shocked to say the least. some people actually cure themselves!
antibotics are pretty cut and dried.. the bactera dies or it doesn't.. viral medicines are soso as to the efficacy and desired end result the drug obtains and
when you get into lifestyle and psychcological drugs.. end result evaluations are pretty tough to sort thru..
If you look deep into trial data.. half the time 25%+ or more of the test subjuects dropped out or were removed for "various" reasons..
just get the PI sheet for any "happy pill".. btw I reped antiboitics and
viral(herpes drugs)..spouse sold "happy pills" and HIV drugs!!
so DBT does not by any means give "definitive" results.
Laura Elaine Lewis..dont;' know her new married name so I have no idea what thesis is under! she started at Ga state and Mercer finished it in Detroit, MI
I do not think it outright claimed that all blind test were inaccurate and I do not know the final output of her thesis.. but it entailed a broad range of test subjects and yes the results wee that blind testing induced stress and affected the resulsts..
when I get time i;'ll tell you about the"hearing" test we did..
shot holes all in the abx and blind testing.. not sure if she put that in thesis or not.. I'll call her if she'll talk to me and see if I can get a copy
yes drug co use DBT.. I was a drug rep in my youger daze and my my current spouse is now.
lets say most drug co. testing is a crap shoot at best and you only get the info they want you to hear.. how else to you explain that a drug was only 20% better that a sugar pill (placebo)..LMAO..
if you ever read the full test reports you'd be shocked to say the least. some people actually cure themselves!
antibotics are pretty cut and dried.. the bactera dies or it doesn't.. viral medicines are soso as to the efficacy and desired end result the drug obtains and
when you get into lifestyle and psychcological drugs.. end result evaluations are pretty tough to sort thru..
If you look deep into trial data.. half the time 25%+ or more of the test subjuects dropped out or were removed for "various" reasons..
just get the PI sheet for any "happy pill".. btw I reped antiboitics and
viral(herpes drugs)..spouse sold "happy pills" and HIV drugs!!
so DBT does not by any means give "definitive" results.
Why is it that people who believe all amps sound the same want to prove this to be true, even when the only tool is flawed blindtestings, where as the other part only laughs at this.. really makes me wonder
eStatic said:
eStatic said:
His site provides a fairly good overview of it... did you find that??
Guess you either have to coerce an AES member to get one for you or ante up the $20 bux... if it was published in the Journal any engineering or decent University library can get you a copy...
Keep in mind I don't agree with a whole lot of his conclusions about things, but this bit of research does appear to provide a basis for explaining things that formerly had no correlation.
_-_-bear
Well, here's how it finally all comes down: 
There are two camps,
- objectivists
- subjectivists
The objectivists call me a "subjectivist".
While the "subjectivists" call me an "objectivist"!
This all depends on which forum we're on, or who I am talking to...
But no, this is not correct.
There is a THIRD camp, that I hereby claim and declare for all to revel and wonder at!
REALIST
From this day forth, those who (like myself of course 😀 ) have open minds and a balanced view of these matters sonic, shall be known as a REALIST.
_-_-bear
There are two camps,
- objectivists
- subjectivists
The objectivists call me a "subjectivist".
While the "subjectivists" call me an "objectivist"!
This all depends on which forum we're on, or who I am talking to...
But no, this is not correct.
There is a THIRD camp, that I hereby claim and declare for all to revel and wonder at!
REALISTFrom this day forth, those who (like myself of course 😀 ) have open minds and a balanced view of these matters sonic, shall be known as a REALIST.
_-_-bear
eStatic said:
I've got these. Anyone interested can feel free to shoot me an email for more info.
bear said:
There is a THIRD camp, that I hereby claim and declare for all to revel and wonder at!
From this day forth, those who (like myself of course 😀 ) have open minds and a balanced view of these matters sonic, shall be known as a REALIST.
_-_-bear
I have stopped tweeking( almost) and mainly rely and build on common sense and my limited experiense, either it works or it doesnt...does that makes me a realist too
🙂
Relevant work
Some relevant work (and the proof that this topic can be approached from a scientific perspective, rather than from a subjective/voodoo/I know better/etc... perspective). The results are debatable, but the methodology/approach is correct.
http://projekter.aau.dk/projekter/retrieve/9852082?format=application/pdf
Some relevant work (and the proof that this topic can be approached from a scientific perspective, rather than from a subjective/voodoo/I know better/etc... perspective). The results are debatable, but the methodology/approach is correct.
http://projekter.aau.dk/projekter/retrieve/9852082?format=application/pdf
Not just your average bear! LOL
Can we call you Yogi?
Now everybody, start trying to agree on the definitions and methodology for next year's amp festival (Sy is going to kill me) because, it will take that long to get a concensus (or longer). The key here is consensus among all the participants. If you want to vote on the criteria, you have to attend! Please feel free to plagiarize other good works too, they just have stand the test of all those attendies.
I think I need a banana, my potassium feels low. In fact I think I'll eat a whole crate. It ain't easy being me (all 800 pounds).
Can we call you Yogi?
Now everybody, start trying to agree on the definitions and methodology for next year's amp festival (Sy is going to kill me) because, it will take that long to get a concensus (or longer). The key here is consensus among all the participants. If you want to vote on the criteria, you have to attend! Please feel free to plagiarize other good works too, they just have stand the test of all those attendies.
I think I need a banana, my potassium feels low. In fact I think I'll eat a whole crate. It ain't easy being me (all 800 pounds).
Goin to put a sign at the door to the amp festival...
"All amps you are about to hear will sound the same..."
"All amps you are about to hear will sound the same..."
hi..the amplifiers sounds very different..who opened this topic..Mr Analog..where do you know about Ahmed Yamani ?
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