> Again, open the door, get outside, take a deep breath of fresh air. That was pretty much my entire point--that the position is inherently illogical and indefensible.
Ok, being insulting isn't gaining you any brownie points, ok? If you have a point, make it, if not, don't. I get out enough to know what I'm talking about, thanks.
My point (by the way) is that the engineering establishment (which I was undestanding you to assail by the "nothing to hear' tag) does not think think that THD down to 0-point-whatever percent distortion is a factor of any importance. at all Get out yourself and read something other than audio hobby rags. The engineering establishnent considers evidence and experimental result, for the most part and are always in search of something presentable. I know the people, not just what I read in HiFi rags.
>. I gave it up. Try it sometime before you urge it on someone else.
Another straw man: "why don't you guys just LISTEN!?!?!". B.S., plain and simple! I listen, and have listened for a long time. Many people listen. They don't all have all cloth ears (probably none of the ones who care, many of whom make a living at this), and you aren't some evangelist proclaiming some radical new truth.
You object to a call for proof. I didn't call for and don't need proof. Just some real *evidence*. Something other than slippery claims and testimonials. I can get testimonials saying that crystals on a necklace cure things or that frogs cause warts.
You respond like the evidence I suggested has been demonstrated regularly. If it has, I've I missed it (I must've not gotten "out" the day when that was being done! 🙂 ). Give some pointers and links, something that can be investigated, tested, checked to see what factors might be making a sound difference and what isn't. Not a guru's opinion or testimonial.
If I'm making too many generalizations about what you mean, I doapologize. It tends to be a factor in such arguments, I'm probably not immune, and I may be reading into your reply some of the silliness I've heard from others and not from you. I don't however, feel that I'm out of line in my defense of the need for something that can be tested or analyzed in this field. You can't seriously expect progress to be made based on what you say you can hear, but can't demonstrate. You also can't seriously believe there is some conspiracy among more rigorous researchers to hide the "TRUTH" on these things! Again: real audio engineers would absolutely sell their souls (!) to document and provide an explanation for some REAL previously unknown audio defects in amplifiers, or to document newly discovered high sensitivity of listeners to currently known ones thought to be common but innocuous.
>You agree that you can identify voices, but you deny it's by sound. Now, that's a curious position to take. The last time I looked, voices were a purely audible phenomenon.
(not my comment you were responding to, but🙂
Would you equate rthe ecognizing of a song that is being played with the perfect fidelity of its reproduction? That seems to be the type of argument you are making here.
There are clearly degrees implied here, short term/long term memory doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to tell ANYTHING over a short term or long term. We are talking about subtle things, apparently here. Otherwise the demonstration of evidence I suggest wouldn't be such a difficult matter.
For example, I think I could demonstrate that I can recognize my sister's voice over a phone. I don't think I can discerne whether her voice is being carried over a silver or a copper wire from the wall jack to the phone, though. Or if the phone call was played over a Krell amplifier or a Sony amplifier.
Ok, being insulting isn't gaining you any brownie points, ok? If you have a point, make it, if not, don't. I get out enough to know what I'm talking about, thanks.
My point (by the way) is that the engineering establishment (which I was undestanding you to assail by the "nothing to hear' tag) does not think think that THD down to 0-point-whatever percent distortion is a factor of any importance. at all Get out yourself and read something other than audio hobby rags. The engineering establishnent considers evidence and experimental result, for the most part and are always in search of something presentable. I know the people, not just what I read in HiFi rags.
>. I gave it up. Try it sometime before you urge it on someone else.
Another straw man: "why don't you guys just LISTEN!?!?!". B.S., plain and simple! I listen, and have listened for a long time. Many people listen. They don't all have all cloth ears (probably none of the ones who care, many of whom make a living at this), and you aren't some evangelist proclaiming some radical new truth.
You object to a call for proof. I didn't call for and don't need proof. Just some real *evidence*. Something other than slippery claims and testimonials. I can get testimonials saying that crystals on a necklace cure things or that frogs cause warts.
You respond like the evidence I suggested has been demonstrated regularly. If it has, I've I missed it (I must've not gotten "out" the day when that was being done! 🙂 ). Give some pointers and links, something that can be investigated, tested, checked to see what factors might be making a sound difference and what isn't. Not a guru's opinion or testimonial.
If I'm making too many generalizations about what you mean, I doapologize. It tends to be a factor in such arguments, I'm probably not immune, and I may be reading into your reply some of the silliness I've heard from others and not from you. I don't however, feel that I'm out of line in my defense of the need for something that can be tested or analyzed in this field. You can't seriously expect progress to be made based on what you say you can hear, but can't demonstrate. You also can't seriously believe there is some conspiracy among more rigorous researchers to hide the "TRUTH" on these things! Again: real audio engineers would absolutely sell their souls (!) to document and provide an explanation for some REAL previously unknown audio defects in amplifiers, or to document newly discovered high sensitivity of listeners to currently known ones thought to be common but innocuous.
>You agree that you can identify voices, but you deny it's by sound. Now, that's a curious position to take. The last time I looked, voices were a purely audible phenomenon.
(not my comment you were responding to, but🙂
Would you equate rthe ecognizing of a song that is being played with the perfect fidelity of its reproduction? That seems to be the type of argument you are making here.
There are clearly degrees implied here, short term/long term memory doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to tell ANYTHING over a short term or long term. We are talking about subtle things, apparently here. Otherwise the demonstration of evidence I suggest wouldn't be such a difficult matter.
For example, I think I could demonstrate that I can recognize my sister's voice over a phone. I don't think I can discerne whether her voice is being carried over a silver or a copper wire from the wall jack to the phone, though. Or if the phone call was played over a Krell amplifier or a Sony amplifier.
>The "blameless" amplifier. I'm of this belief, but I've never seen an amp where a differential test between input and output shows near zero error. Worse, I don't believe the most accurate and flawless amp necesarly sounds the best. You can often improve on the source by changing the response, the damping, or, in the case of vinyl, by contaminating it with spurious signals!
No argument there. I've done lots of signal differencing tests (in digital domain) and differences are trivially easy to find in most cases. Except for with things like green pens applied to CDs or things like that. Another famous straw man argument -- that measurements aren't sensitive enough to pick up differences in equipment. Differences are easy to find, just not so easy for people to find and demonstrate (apparently) with their ears, for whatever reasons.
Agreedalso that sounding the best may not have a lot to do with what is on the recording. When someone plays Britney on a stereo, I'd prefer that something like Steely Dan came out of the speakers!
No argument there. I've done lots of signal differencing tests (in digital domain) and differences are trivially easy to find in most cases. Except for with things like green pens applied to CDs or things like that. Another famous straw man argument -- that measurements aren't sensitive enough to pick up differences in equipment. Differences are easy to find, just not so easy for people to find and demonstrate (apparently) with their ears, for whatever reasons.
Agreedalso that sounding the best may not have a lot to do with what is on the recording. When someone plays Britney on a stereo, I'd prefer that something like Steely Dan came out of the speakers!
An observation
Amps are made up of several components. Some components do not take part in the amplification but can make a significant difference to the sound.
Example.
Take a chip amp like say the lowly LM1875 . Build two units absolutely identical except for the input decoupling capacitor.
Use a 47K ohm resistor in the +ve input . I'm assuming a non-inverting stage is being used. Use a 0.47uF Solen input cap in one amp and a 0.47uF garden variety polyester or 0.47uF X2 Epcos in the other. So LF -3db will be at 7Hz. The frequency response and distortion would be similar in both amps.
Use a good test track and listen carefully to the transient attack of the drums on both amps.
I used track 4 and 12 from Jani Ian's album ' Breaking Silence'. You need a good loudspeaker and CD player of course !
So " some " amps could sound similar based on how they are put together and at the same time many will sound different from each other.
( note: some brands ( and type) of polyester capacitors are exceptionally good !)
I guess I will now have to wait for the flames..........😀
Amps are made up of several components. Some components do not take part in the amplification but can make a significant difference to the sound.
Example.
Take a chip amp like say the lowly LM1875 . Build two units absolutely identical except for the input decoupling capacitor.
Use a 47K ohm resistor in the +ve input . I'm assuming a non-inverting stage is being used. Use a 0.47uF Solen input cap in one amp and a 0.47uF garden variety polyester or 0.47uF X2 Epcos in the other. So LF -3db will be at 7Hz. The frequency response and distortion would be similar in both amps.
Use a good test track and listen carefully to the transient attack of the drums on both amps.
I used track 4 and 12 from Jani Ian's album ' Breaking Silence'. You need a good loudspeaker and CD player of course !
So " some " amps could sound similar based on how they are put together and at the same time many will sound different from each other.
( note: some brands ( and type) of polyester capacitors are exceptionally good !)
I guess I will now have to wait for the flames..........😀
Re: An observation
Ashok, aren't you the eternal optimist? These guys don't believe amps can sound different unless under extreme, preferably asymmetric clipping and you are talking of caps.
Yes, caps may sound different once they start leaking.
What next? Wire? Yup, may sound different but only above the melting point 🙂
ashok said:
Ashok, aren't you the eternal optimist? These guys don't believe amps can sound different unless under extreme, preferably asymmetric clipping and you are talking of caps.
Yes, caps may sound different once they start leaking.
What next? Wire? Yup, may sound different but only above the melting point 🙂
Bless you- with one reservation. The term ABX has become synonymous with controlled blind testing. But it is just one possible format to use in sensory testing, and it is not statistically the most powerful. If a proper double-blind controlled test were done with another format (e.g., triangle or long-term sorting), I suspect you'd accept that the tester wasn't talking out his ***.
analog_sa
With due respect to yours and everyone elses intelligence , I must admit that I DO NOT want caps to sound different , especially some expensive caps. I have two reasons. One is that it is difficult for me to get them and two , they are expensive.
So when I hear some difference I keep trying it over and over again to make sure I am not imagining the difference. I DON'T WANT the expensive caps to sound better ! That's my frame of mind when making the comparisons. I also dislike bulky coupling caps. BUT...............
As far as wire and resistors go I haven''t progressed that far because I don't want to !
By the way I was just trying to point out that amps can sound different just because of some parts that they have chosen to use. With different type parts there is 'potential' for it to sound different !
If all components behave exactly the same ( eg. all caps sound the same ) , then all amps would probably sound the same.
Cheers.
With due respect to yours and everyone elses intelligence , I must admit that I DO NOT want caps to sound different , especially some expensive caps. I have two reasons. One is that it is difficult for me to get them and two , they are expensive.
So when I hear some difference I keep trying it over and over again to make sure I am not imagining the difference. I DON'T WANT the expensive caps to sound better ! That's my frame of mind when making the comparisons. I also dislike bulky coupling caps. BUT...............
As far as wire and resistors go I haven''t progressed that far because I don't want to !
By the way I was just trying to point out that amps can sound different just because of some parts that they have chosen to use. With different type parts there is 'potential' for it to sound different !
If all components behave exactly the same ( eg. all caps sound the same ) , then all amps would probably sound the same.
Cheers.
Ashok, I would suggest that you take a few days and actually run some level-matched double blind tests between things you "know" sound different. You will be shocked. For me, the experience was life-changing.
I still think that these issues are important, but much less so than things I *can* hear blind (e.g., overload recovery, frequency response, minor level changes, effects of codecs and compression...).
I still think that these issues are important, but much less so than things I *can* hear blind (e.g., overload recovery, frequency response, minor level changes, effects of codecs and compression...).
Hi Sy,
You could be right . I did intend doing such a test to make sure that I wasn't imaging things. There have been times when some listening tests did produce inconclusive results with some other equipment.
There is however an issue with caps that I am not happy about. Yes our memory can play tricks on us . This will need further investigation . As you say , it could produce shocking results.....let me see.
Cheers.
You could be right . I did intend doing such a test to make sure that I wasn't imaging things. There have been times when some listening tests did produce inconclusive results with some other equipment.
There is however an issue with caps that I am not happy about. Yes our memory can play tricks on us . This will need further investigation . As you say , it could produce shocking results.....let me see.
Cheers.
The only amplifiers that possibly could sound the same are amplifiers of a like or similar circuit design. Try compairing a J.C.Penny amplifier to a SAE 2400 for example and you will find a sonic difference. The same hold true to many other amplifiers.
I have owned and or worked on hundreds of different amplifiers over the years and have listened without prejudice and still have heard differences. I have had blind fold tests run and have come out correct almost 100% of the time. Some amplifiers like the Crown for example I can pick out in less than 30 seconds based on their extremely bad high frequency response that sounds like breaking glass.
So, do all amplifiers sound the same? Based on my experience I would have to answer a no.
I have owned and or worked on hundreds of different amplifiers over the years and have listened without prejudice and still have heard differences. I have had blind fold tests run and have come out correct almost 100% of the time. Some amplifiers like the Crown for example I can pick out in less than 30 seconds based on their extremely bad high frequency response that sounds like breaking glass.
So, do all amplifiers sound the same? Based on my experience I would have to answer a no.
GRollins said:
i won't dispute the fact that you have developed your hearing acuity because i have no way of knowing whether or not this is the case (and i think it is a reasonable possibility). however, suggesting that you have developed this skill in the same way a blind person would is not supported by experimental data. the current theory would require that your vision got worse. i hope this is not the case.
I'm curious as to where you've found a study pertaining to audiophiles attempting to educate their ears and losing their sight in the process. Can you give me a link to this 'experimental data' that you're referring to?
I have noted elsewhere a number of exercises I developed to educate my hearing. They are simple, cost nothing, and they work. As you might surmise from some of the posts here, I got responses ranging from 'I can't be bothered' to 'it reminds me of being in the army.' Several posts ran along the lines of 'but it would interfere with my enjoyment of music!' although they didn't specify why or how such a thing would happen. Either people are too lazy to try or they are afraid that it would lead them into a confrontation with their preconceived notions.
Grey
I have noted elsewhere a number of exercises I developed to educate my hearing. They are simple, cost nothing, and they work. As you might surmise from some of the posts here, I got responses ranging from 'I can't be bothered' to 'it reminds me of being in the army.' Several posts ran along the lines of 'but it would interfere with my enjoyment of music!' although they didn't specify why or how such a thing would happen. Either people are too lazy to try or they are afraid that it would lead them into a confrontation with their preconceived notions.
Grey
jcx said:
From my early post:"I have built 4 amps over the last couple of years. Each one has given a significant improvement in the realism of the music. This is confirmed by trips to the concert hall and making comparisons."
REALISM is my interest. I want to have a sense that I am there in the concert hall, cathedral, theatre .... etc.
Comparing yours and your mates' amps. is easy enough. Play them in turn and if there is a marked difference it will be obvious. If they sound different you choose the most realistic one, if no significant difference you pat each other on the back.
Making one amp. sound the same as another seems pointless when there is a real world out there to compare to.
Andy
Ashok,
No flames. But the claim would mean more if it could be testably demonstrated in some way (I still suggest setting up a table or room at a convention show floor to demonstrate this, somewhere where enough people can verify and rule out other factors). After all, there are numerous claims that putting a photo of yourself in the freezer will make a system owned by you sound better! Or that little pieces of wood will transform your room's acoustics. Without some backing that doesn't involve merely trusting someones' judgment, there's not much to separate these kinds of statements, unfortunately.
If it's true and if you want it to be more than a just another forgettable post in a newsgroup, it would be more valuable to demonstrate this ability for differentiating sounds of capacitors by someone, based on only the sound. In a way that could bear scrutiny and support experiment to determine what the audible factors might be. You may well be right, but then the freezer photo people could be, too.
FWIW, I've been in listening sessions where people (me included) felt they could tell capacitor types apart, but when checked with any care and controls, it seemed that we really couldn't actually, at least not then in the given situation. I don't buy the "unnatural listening situation" argument on that, btw -- if it takes an act of faith and lack of skepticism for something to be audible then for all practical purposes, well, it just isn't.
No flames. But the claim would mean more if it could be testably demonstrated in some way (I still suggest setting up a table or room at a convention show floor to demonstrate this, somewhere where enough people can verify and rule out other factors). After all, there are numerous claims that putting a photo of yourself in the freezer will make a system owned by you sound better! Or that little pieces of wood will transform your room's acoustics. Without some backing that doesn't involve merely trusting someones' judgment, there's not much to separate these kinds of statements, unfortunately.
If it's true and if you want it to be more than a just another forgettable post in a newsgroup, it would be more valuable to demonstrate this ability for differentiating sounds of capacitors by someone, based on only the sound. In a way that could bear scrutiny and support experiment to determine what the audible factors might be. You may well be right, but then the freezer photo people could be, too.
FWIW, I've been in listening sessions where people (me included) felt they could tell capacitor types apart, but when checked with any care and controls, it seemed that we really couldn't actually, at least not then in the given situation. I don't buy the "unnatural listening situation" argument on that, btw -- if it takes an act of faith and lack of skepticism for something to be audible then for all practical purposes, well, it just isn't.
Perhaps it does serve a purpose. It keeps the noobs from being too easily seduced into investing substantial time and money on amps when they'd be ever so much better off spending it on speakers and the acoustic environment of the listening room where real differences can be made.
My friend has bought a Nakamichi amp and was interested to see if my among friends well reputed homebrew 50watt would do
The Nakamichi played with power, sure thing...but only my "small" amps revealed the magic of music...into 2ohm load...and the differense was obvious when looking at my friends face 😀
To say that all amps are the same
you could just as well claim that the earth has become flat again 
The same design built by 2 different persons may also sound different
I will ad that Nelson Pass has done a great job by giving a lot of people good solid amps...a good amp is just as important as good speakers
The Nakamichi played with power, sure thing...but only my "small" amps revealed the magic of music...into 2ohm load...and the differense was obvious when looking at my friends face 😀
To say that all amps are the same
you could just as well claim that the earth has become flat again The same design built by 2 different persons may also sound different
I will ad that Nelson Pass has done a great job by giving a lot of people good solid amps...a good amp is just as important as good speakers
tested on a spectrum analyzer, every amp has a "fingerprint". let's say you drive the amp with a sine wave and measure the output with a spectrum analyzer. even two amps from the same assembly line and consecutive serial numbers will have slight differences in their harmonic content, which for lack of a better term could be called a "fingerprint". add to this output impedance (damping factor), variations in frequency response, differences in slew rate, etc, and a "model A" amp and a "model B" amp can sound quite different. beyond this, no two people hear the same thing exactly the same way. if everybody heard everything exactly the same way, a manufacturer could design a "universal amplifier" and everybody would buy it.....
Unclejed,
I have emailed you twice and you have not responded. Please use the email button to contact me and I will reply.
Thank you.
When two engineers are told to develop an amp that does as good as possible for a certain price with any speaker you hook up, then who wonders why they sound pretty much the same. In Germany the audio magazined have the bad habit to form rankings of audio devices, I don´t know whether this works as stupid in other parts of the world, but it only works if speakers and aplifiers are seen to be compatible devices. No way of breaking up the phalanx with 20W Class A.
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