foolishness...
Apparently everyone prefers to pontificate, argue, and "express themselves"... and ignore the post I made several pages back...
I'll say this again:
The "GedLee Metric" essentially explains in a scientific fashion a basis for the differences in audibility between different amplfiers, or speakers, etc... it doesn't end up confirming the status quo.
Read it.
Let me add, that as far as I am aware there have been no "blind" or ABX tests in peer reviewed journals (or anywhere else) that have adequately tested, measured and controlled those parameters that are available with present technology - this renders the tests valid only for the specific test circumstances, not beyond.
Notwithstanding the psychometric manipulations of various "codecs", which are both of interest and useful, this does not mean that A) the human perception of audio is without flaw or issue and B) that such schemes are impossible to differentiate from a high resolution version of the same data when reproduced optimally.
Furthermore, while "level matching" is clearly an important, and maybe essential part of any "test" - that is not a simple issue, one that can be simply dismissed by simple matching at say 1kHz. (the reasons for this ought to be self-evident).
In addition, the level matching to a high degree of accuracy presupposes that one's perception of quality is solely based upon loudness? Consider a visual analogy here... loudness = contrast on a monitor. What about resolution and color accuracy?? Is the perception of stereo information merely based on absolute loudness]?? I think not.
While I am sure that the immediate perception of "quality" for many people is based upon mere SPL (witness the average dismal sound at amplified music venues), it certainly is not around here.
While I am sure that there can be two units (amps, speakers, whatever) that might be extremely close in sound, as far as I am concerned and listening on my system there is not much chance that anyone who can hear worth a damn would not perceive differences if they are present - and they are present more often than not. And I do not mean just loudness, or a perception based upon loudness. Put it another way the preference is not based on loudness or softness comparing one to the other.
Finally, there is nil probability that speakers are not the most variable and have the greatest distortion(s) and limitations of all the components in a system. BUT, that does not mean that you can not hear "ick" in a given CD player through a speaker that nominally has much higher distortion levels. Similarly, that does not mean that you automatically will hear differences in an amp if the CD player happens to have a certain "fingerprint" (spectra of distortion), to use someone else's term from this thread, that serves to mask or add to the total spectra of distortions.
Disagree if you want, but sooner or later I am confident that this is pretty much where the science & testing will finally conclude is the case...
_-_-bear
Apparently everyone prefers to pontificate, argue, and "express themselves"... and ignore the post I made several pages back...
I'll say this again:
The "GedLee Metric" essentially explains in a scientific fashion a basis for the differences in audibility between different amplfiers, or speakers, etc... it doesn't end up confirming the status quo.
Read it.
Let me add, that as far as I am aware there have been no "blind" or ABX tests in peer reviewed journals (or anywhere else) that have adequately tested, measured and controlled those parameters that are available with present technology - this renders the tests valid only for the specific test circumstances, not beyond.
Notwithstanding the psychometric manipulations of various "codecs", which are both of interest and useful, this does not mean that A) the human perception of audio is without flaw or issue and B) that such schemes are impossible to differentiate from a high resolution version of the same data when reproduced optimally.
Furthermore, while "level matching" is clearly an important, and maybe essential part of any "test" - that is not a simple issue, one that can be simply dismissed by simple matching at say 1kHz. (the reasons for this ought to be self-evident).
In addition, the level matching to a high degree of accuracy presupposes that one's perception of quality is solely based upon loudness? Consider a visual analogy here... loudness = contrast on a monitor. What about resolution and color accuracy?? Is the perception of stereo information merely based on absolute loudness]?? I think not.
While I am sure that the immediate perception of "quality" for many people is based upon mere SPL (witness the average dismal sound at amplified music venues), it certainly is not around here.
While I am sure that there can be two units (amps, speakers, whatever) that might be extremely close in sound, as far as I am concerned and listening on my system there is not much chance that anyone who can hear worth a damn would not perceive differences if they are present - and they are present more often than not. And I do not mean just loudness, or a perception based upon loudness. Put it another way the preference is not based on loudness or softness comparing one to the other.
Finally, there is nil probability that speakers are not the most variable and have the greatest distortion(s) and limitations of all the components in a system. BUT, that does not mean that you can not hear "ick" in a given CD player through a speaker that nominally has much higher distortion levels. Similarly, that does not mean that you automatically will hear differences in an amp if the CD player happens to have a certain "fingerprint" (spectra of distortion), to use someone else's term from this thread, that serves to mask or add to the total spectra of distortions.
Disagree if you want, but sooner or later I am confident that this is pretty much where the science & testing will finally conclude is the case...
_-_-bear
Glen, you can rest assured that within my own mind, my logic is flawless and non-contradictory ;-) Now, given the described THD curve, tell me what the amplifier will sound like. I assume your claim is that, above some audible threshold, THD does describe at least some aspect of sound quality. I say no, you at least need a spectra, and even that may not be definitive. Not to get sidetracked from the overall discussion, I do believe that all amps meeting "the conditions" (matched levels, no clipping, same freq response, errors below x dB, etc.) will in fact sound the same. There just isn't any plausible reason to believe otherwise.
I will say that 9 out of 10 wont hear the differense, and it wont matter much to them either...well, it does to me😀
If you believe in this nonsens that ALL good amps sound the same...it would be like saying that there will never be a better amp...devellopment standstill
If you believe in this nonsens that ALL good amps sound the same...it would be like saying that there will never be a better amp...devellopment standstill
Re: foolishness...
Is it possible that stress caused you to hear the differences?
I have. Along with his measurements, etc text. It's safe to say that he knows (along with his spouse) a great deal more about measurements and sound perception correlation than most, if any, in this thread, which is most likely why you are steadfastly referencing his work.
Do you also read where he used a $150 Costco Pioneer amp to demo his pride and joy to prospective buyers at RMAF or read his comments?
cheers,
AJ
IMSTOOPID said:
Is it possible that stress caused you to hear the differences?
IMSTOOPID [/i][B] and yes speakers must be involved.. amps make no sound except buzzing transformers!!! [/B][/QUOTE] Hey said:
I have. Along with his measurements, etc text. It's safe to say that he knows (along with his spouse) a great deal more about measurements and sound perception correlation than most, if any, in this thread, which is most likely why you are steadfastly referencing his work.
Do you also read where he used a $150 Costco Pioneer amp to demo his pride and joy to prospective buyers at RMAF or read his comments?
cheers,
AJ
READ IT...
SO OTHER STUDIES SHOW OPPOSITE..
SO WHO IS RIGHT,.,.
I THINK MY EX WIRE STATED IT BEST IN HER DOCTORAL THESIS
PARAPHRASED..
ALL SENSES ARE PARTIALLY PSYCHOLOGICAL..
the same psychological factors that make people "crazy" cause them to hear/see/ smell..etc thing that may or may not be perceptable to other people!!!
however each person has their own reality!!!
by god if some percieves that they hear something..
IT IS THEIR REALITY and no scientific study will convince them otherwise..
never got into a fight with an old man.. he's too old to fight so he will probably just kill you..never argue with an idiot or crazy person.. you will lose and look as stoopid as you perceive them... andnever put perfume on a pig.. you accompish nothing and annoy the pic!!!
SO OTHER STUDIES SHOW OPPOSITE..
SO WHO IS RIGHT,.,.
I THINK MY EX WIRE STATED IT BEST IN HER DOCTORAL THESIS
PARAPHRASED..
ALL SENSES ARE PARTIALLY PSYCHOLOGICAL..
the same psychological factors that make people "crazy" cause them to hear/see/ smell..etc thing that may or may not be perceptable to other people!!!
however each person has their own reality!!!
by god if some percieves that they hear something..
IT IS THEIR REALITY and no scientific study will convince them otherwise..
never got into a fight with an old man.. he's too old to fight so he will probably just kill you..never argue with an idiot or crazy person.. you will lose and look as stoopid as you perceive them... andnever put perfume on a pig.. you accompish nothing and annoy the pic!!!
Well, I can see we have "personalities" involved here. 🙂
I started believing that anything you can hear, you can measure. I had to change my point of view over the years. Now I'm at a point that if your equipment is above a certain quality, you can indeed hear differences between amplifiers and preamps. Tuners, CDs on and on. I have not accepted speaker wire or interconnects unless they cause a problem.
Yes, distortion spectra is different between amplifiers. But the causes are very difficult to quantify (for me anyway). There is a connection with the order of distortion harmonics for sure. Proved by several people and I don't care to go through and pick out examples. I have better things to do with my time.
I have actually caused differences to be heard in amplifiers for over 25 years with simple adjustments and component changes. So the evidence is empirical for me. For the last number of years I have measured the frequency response before and after. Also the THD There is usually a tiny drop in the THD, within experimental error but always down. Interesting.
One last comment. Grey, instead of always crying for everyone else to prove they are correct, why not prove your take on things instead? Now, you know this is much more difficult than yelling "prove it!". Also, it would help if you didn't get extreme with what you think people are saying. If you are unsure about a comment, why not ask for clarification rather than using a flawed shadow of a statement and commenting on that?
-Chris
I started believing that anything you can hear, you can measure. I had to change my point of view over the years. Now I'm at a point that if your equipment is above a certain quality, you can indeed hear differences between amplifiers and preamps. Tuners, CDs on and on. I have not accepted speaker wire or interconnects unless they cause a problem.
Yes, distortion spectra is different between amplifiers. But the causes are very difficult to quantify (for me anyway). There is a connection with the order of distortion harmonics for sure. Proved by several people and I don't care to go through and pick out examples. I have better things to do with my time.
I have actually caused differences to be heard in amplifiers for over 25 years with simple adjustments and component changes. So the evidence is empirical for me. For the last number of years I have measured the frequency response before and after. Also the THD There is usually a tiny drop in the THD, within experimental error but always down. Interesting.
One last comment. Grey, instead of always crying for everyone else to prove they are correct, why not prove your take on things instead? Now, you know this is much more difficult than yelling "prove it!". Also, it would help if you didn't get extreme with what you think people are saying. If you are unsure about a comment, why not ask for clarification rather than using a flawed shadow of a statement and commenting on that?
-Chris
Re: Re: foolishness...
Please note that what I said was that it is my view that his "GedLee Metric" provides a basis for explaining... I don't happen to agree with Dr. Geddes about a wide range of things, although I must profess great inferiority when it comes to his field of expertise by way of personal comparison.
_-_-bear
PS. I guess I'll check out your links, and no I hadn't read those things...
AJinFLA said:
Please note that what I said was that it is my view that his "GedLee Metric" provides a basis for explaining... I don't happen to agree with Dr. Geddes about a wide range of things, although I must profess great inferiority when it comes to his field of expertise by way of personal comparison.
_-_-bear
PS. I guess I'll check out your links, and no I hadn't read those things...
IMSTOOPID said:
If ur referring to my post??
No other studies show anything opposite.
You haven't read it.
_-_-bear
cabbagerat,
Here is a link to a design for an A B switchbox which you might want to try.
http://sound.westhost.com/absw.htm
I am not that capable yet with electronics, but I would think that there would be more interest in a device of this nature amongst the contributors on this thread? This box looks like it would be a great way to solve this problem.
Here is a link to a design for an A B switchbox which you might want to try.
http://sound.westhost.com/absw.htm
I am not that capable yet with electronics, but I would think that there would be more interest in a device of this nature amongst the contributors on this thread? This box looks like it would be a great way to solve this problem.
BEAR.
I WAS THERE ON THE LDSG AND OLD BASSLIST MEMBER
WHEN DR. GEDDES WAS KICKED OFF!!!
I KNOW HIS WORK.. my ex-hag and his wife conversed some.
wtf they talked about I have no clue
I should not say studies.. but testing by so called audio experts..
read Toole's work..
you can always find conflicting data somewhere if you dig deep enuff..
I hear therefore I exist..!!!
JUST tune it ill you like it!!
I WAS THERE ON THE LDSG AND OLD BASSLIST MEMBER
WHEN DR. GEDDES WAS KICKED OFF!!!
I KNOW HIS WORK.. my ex-hag and his wife conversed some.
wtf they talked about I have no clue
I should not say studies.. but testing by so called audio experts..
read Toole's work..
you can always find conflicting data somewhere if you dig deep enuff..
I hear therefore I exist..!!!
JUST tune it ill you like it!!
Hi-fi is a dead subject.
I took an interest in hi-fi again recently, after not having paid much attention to the subject for nearly 30 years.
Mostly I've been doing some design work on the DSP side of radio cards for 3G basestations, but I also got to do some purely analog stuff up to 2.4GHz, including some stuff on antennas.
I came on this site, and with no effort at all got in a couple of arguments without having said anything I regarded as controversial.
Now, after a bit of poking around, I discover that a truly appalling state of affairs has arisen. Unlike the worlds of photography, video and music RECORDING, the hi-fi world has launched itself off into some irrational psychosphere more reminiscent of astrology than the scientific discipline out of which the entire technology emerged. This has so degraded the sensibilities of all concerned that even engineers are demoralised and passive participants in this lunacy in some cases. Little wonder when the sales of your designs are more dependent on the graffito of some tweak than their technical merit.
Speaker cables that affect the sound. Thousand dollar mains cables. Valve amplifiers out of the Ark.
Nobody uses FILM anymore. NOBODY. I'd ROFLMAO if it wasn't so pathetic...
Credence is given to obviously unqualified and anonymous morons who couldn't string two components together over the professional opinions of the very engineers who designed much of the equipment on which the recordings are made.
MP3 compression did not come about by accident. The limits of human audio perception are very well understood indeed. Hi-fi is basically a dead subject apart from speakers. Practically EVERYTHING is hi-fi now except when we choose to trade a bit of quality for storage space.
Where people are serious about (earn their living from) music, i.e. among musicians and recording engineers, it is still the the THD, noise and other scientifically based measurements that constitute the bottom line when choosing and buying equipment for a task. How many valve amplifiers or pre-amplifiers do you imagine there are in recording studios? None. They got rid of them because of the size and power consumption, as soon as sound quality permitted - to make room for more tracks.
I know it's difficult to admit that you have been the gullible victim of a fraud, but for those of you giving much thought to anything other than your choice of speakers, get a life, get a grip, stop obsessing about equipment and try to find something constructive with which to occupy your mind. Learn to play an instrument maybe?
w
I took an interest in hi-fi again recently, after not having paid much attention to the subject for nearly 30 years.
Mostly I've been doing some design work on the DSP side of radio cards for 3G basestations, but I also got to do some purely analog stuff up to 2.4GHz, including some stuff on antennas.
I came on this site, and with no effort at all got in a couple of arguments without having said anything I regarded as controversial.
Now, after a bit of poking around, I discover that a truly appalling state of affairs has arisen. Unlike the worlds of photography, video and music RECORDING, the hi-fi world has launched itself off into some irrational psychosphere more reminiscent of astrology than the scientific discipline out of which the entire technology emerged. This has so degraded the sensibilities of all concerned that even engineers are demoralised and passive participants in this lunacy in some cases. Little wonder when the sales of your designs are more dependent on the graffito of some tweak than their technical merit.
Speaker cables that affect the sound. Thousand dollar mains cables. Valve amplifiers out of the Ark.
Nobody uses FILM anymore. NOBODY. I'd ROFLMAO if it wasn't so pathetic...
Credence is given to obviously unqualified and anonymous morons who couldn't string two components together over the professional opinions of the very engineers who designed much of the equipment on which the recordings are made.
MP3 compression did not come about by accident. The limits of human audio perception are very well understood indeed. Hi-fi is basically a dead subject apart from speakers. Practically EVERYTHING is hi-fi now except when we choose to trade a bit of quality for storage space.
Where people are serious about (earn their living from) music, i.e. among musicians and recording engineers, it is still the the THD, noise and other scientifically based measurements that constitute the bottom line when choosing and buying equipment for a task. How many valve amplifiers or pre-amplifiers do you imagine there are in recording studios? None. They got rid of them because of the size and power consumption, as soon as sound quality permitted - to make room for more tracks.
I know it's difficult to admit that you have been the gullible victim of a fraud, but for those of you giving much thought to anything other than your choice of speakers, get a life, get a grip, stop obsessing about equipment and try to find something constructive with which to occupy your mind. Learn to play an instrument maybe?
w
Do all audio amplifiers really sound the same???
Not gonna touch this one with a ten foot pole.
Not gonna touch this one with a ten foot pole.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RUDE CRUDE AND SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!
sorry sometimes I forget to turn them off..
maybe I should change my password ..
to uncaps.. something like.. stoopidrednek???
sorry sometimes I forget to turn them off..
maybe I should change my password ..
to uncaps.. something like.. stoopidrednek???
Re: Hi-fi is a dead subject.
In PCS? They do some impressive stuff, people don't realize what a phone call is anymore.
Bandwidth technology for wireless has gone so far beyond audio it is not even comparable.
wakibaki said:
In PCS? They do some impressive stuff, people don't realize what a phone call is anymore.
Bandwidth technology for wireless has gone so far beyond audio it is not even comparable.
Re: Hi-fi is a dead subject.
I was just joking in my post, trying to point out one of the many bad reasons "audiophiles" reject blind testing and good test protocol.jaimango said:
I think the biggest issue here is that audio amplification is pretty much a solved (at reasonable powers) problem - but many people have a commercial and personal interest in keeping it alive as an issue.wakibaki said:
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