Yes, but they have to pass blind tests for an MW, WSET, MS, and the like.
Parker is exempt because he built a church first.
Parker is exempt because he built a church first.
SY said:
SY, I've been waiting all day for this. Lay it on us.
panomaniac said:
Pano, universities will often have these journals in their reference library. I'm pretty sure a couple near me do, so make a list, and I'll photocopy and post them!
That goes for anyone else.
Pan said:
Are there any generous Swedes on the board willing to do a little footwork? Can anyone confirm that LTS has done controlled amp tests?
To me this thread is a joke, as far as I can understand scientists "proved" that amps that MEASURES THE SAME (hopefully with speakers) will sound the same. This may be so but I still want to see which two amplifiers will really measure the same.
Then some, for some reason, try to use this "evidence" to try and convince people that ALL amplifiers sound the same. I've said earlier I believe the only one's that can gain through this misinformation is people that manufacture or sell inferior amplifiers and don't want customers to listen for themselves.
My experience is that the better your hi-fi system get, the easier it get to hear differences. Note I'm talking about a system because no one component is less important than the other to achieve an "optimum" system, cables included. Also if you start to compare the sound of a hi-fi with what real instruments sound like, listening to it's ability to accurately reproduce every sound, the decay of notes, soundstage, experience the ambience of the venue where the recording was made, you will realise how easy it get to hear real differences. Then you judge by the amount of detail and accuracy of reproduction, its ability to make it sound real.
If that's not what fascinate you, then any amplifier is probably good enough for you, don't try and force it on others that know there is more through years of experimenting and listening.
Then some, for some reason, try to use this "evidence" to try and convince people that ALL amplifiers sound the same. I've said earlier I believe the only one's that can gain through this misinformation is people that manufacture or sell inferior amplifiers and don't want customers to listen for themselves.
My experience is that the better your hi-fi system get, the easier it get to hear differences. Note I'm talking about a system because no one component is less important than the other to achieve an "optimum" system, cables included. Also if you start to compare the sound of a hi-fi with what real instruments sound like, listening to it's ability to accurately reproduce every sound, the decay of notes, soundstage, experience the ambience of the venue where the recording was made, you will realise how easy it get to hear real differences. Then you judge by the amount of detail and accuracy of reproduction, its ability to make it sound real.
If that's not what fascinate you, then any amplifier is probably good enough for you, don't try and force it on others that know there is more through years of experimenting and listening.
I saw an open challenge to prove amp differences. The catch was the context- 2 car audio amps with the same power output and specs.
Wow, gee, bet one's heavily biased class AB Mosfets and one's an OTL eh? Either that or they're both cheaply built schlock, either class D, class B ('cause 10mW of bias isn't class AB) or chipamps.
Wow, gee, bet one's heavily biased class AB Mosfets and one's an OTL eh? Either that or they're both cheaply built schlock, either class D, class B ('cause 10mW of bias isn't class AB) or chipamps.
Andre Visser said:
Please see this post (#410) in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1458119#post1458119
analog_sa said:
???
I think you may have misunderstood me. On your point, good pre-amp don't sound, bad ones do...
cuibono said:
Thanks! I did think about the library thing, but I don't know if UH lends out journals. As I don't live on Oahu near the library anymore, that would make it tricky.
But no worries, I just got a generous offer form an AES member on this board to buy thru him. Just got to get a shopping list together.
BTW, SY did mention something about "Triangle" and "Long Term Sorting" back in about post #27 or something.
So far, I have not been able to track down these analysis methods. Any clues are welcome.
Pano-
A university near me seems to have them, so if there is something, just let me know. I've spent a while going through the AES online database, and couldn't find anything more than what you've posted. No DB amp comparisons yet - SY?
Triangle testing is a type of preference or discrimination test, and compares three things versus ABX comparing 2 - google should be able to bring up scientific articles on the subject. This looks good:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g3...hvN-YVK&sig=txZ0WnCtVQOkPHiVr4D-OA4qROk&hl=en
a simple explanation a little ways down:
http://labs.ansci.uiuc.edu/meatscience/Library/sensory evaluation.htm
The purpose of doing a long term test is to get past the argument that quick switching or a test environment may 'stress' the participant.
A university near me seems to have them, so if there is something, just let me know. I've spent a while going through the AES online database, and couldn't find anything more than what you've posted. No DB amp comparisons yet - SY?
Triangle testing is a type of preference or discrimination test, and compares three things versus ABX comparing 2 - google should be able to bring up scientific articles on the subject. This looks good:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g3...hvN-YVK&sig=txZ0WnCtVQOkPHiVr4D-OA4qROk&hl=en
a simple explanation a little ways down:
http://labs.ansci.uiuc.edu/meatscience/Library/sensory evaluation.htm
The purpose of doing a long term test is to get past the argument that quick switching or a test environment may 'stress' the participant.
eStatic said:
Sorry that didn't came through right, I am not referring to this thread only, I've battled with that argument a few times before.
André
cb, to do a literature search, you may actually have to go to the library. A good librarian will help you track down the papers referenced in the ones you've found as well as later papers that reference them. Online searching of journals is still fairly limited, especially for older stuff.
rdf said:
Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.
"I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am" 🙂
Not tautology. If 'I' does not think, then the statement is false. However, because 'I' does think, then the statement does appear to be tautological.
This is going nowhere.
I wili only point out that subjective camp is typically all upbeat about amplifier differences ("night and day", "laughable" etc.) until the visual stimulus is taken away. Only then they start to talk about validity of DBT, statistics, universe and everything.
If it is so obvious to you, why on Earth don't you always guess it right ? I mean even blind drunk I can always tell Barossa Shiraz from Marlborough Savignon Blanc, and even severely headcold I can tell a difference between Coco #5 and Faberge Brut. No ifs and buts.
Did Peter Walker rig his test ? Or were Golden Eared Ones from few decades ago much more deaf than GEO's of today ? Beats me. All I know is that balooned egos of local HiFi snobs get invariably deflated to the size of peanut whenever they can't see which amp is playing. "Peer pressure" I hear you crying. Well, you know what - you are right ! "Hic Rhodos, hic salta!" is all you will hear from me, every time, all the time.
Maybe we just don't cultivate our share of proper GEO's in my neck of the woods ? Maybe is the water ? Hmmm ...
I wili only point out that subjective camp is typically all upbeat about amplifier differences ("night and day", "laughable" etc.) until the visual stimulus is taken away. Only then they start to talk about validity of DBT, statistics, universe and everything.
If it is so obvious to you, why on Earth don't you always guess it right ? I mean even blind drunk I can always tell Barossa Shiraz from Marlborough Savignon Blanc, and even severely headcold I can tell a difference between Coco #5 and Faberge Brut. No ifs and buts.
Did Peter Walker rig his test ? Or were Golden Eared Ones from few decades ago much more deaf than GEO's of today ? Beats me. All I know is that balooned egos of local HiFi snobs get invariably deflated to the size of peanut whenever they can't see which amp is playing. "Peer pressure" I hear you crying. Well, you know what - you are right ! "Hic Rhodos, hic salta!" is all you will hear from me, every time, all the time.
Maybe we just don't cultivate our share of proper GEO's in my neck of the woods ? Maybe is the water ? Hmmm ...
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