Re: Re: Re: Re: Esp+ ?
Apologies for misunderstanding. I didn't plan to place mains 'on top', I wanted to integrate them with subs into one speaker by extending the front baffle and then fitting the sub in the space underneath (front or side firing). It would be just one structure, and I can make it pretty strong and intert using standard techniques (bracing, constrained damping, 'box in the box' with sand filler etc.). The top section would keep exactly the same dimensions, the only difference is that bass/mid unit would not be as 'free space' as front baffle would become larger, possibly affecting its baffle step compensation network. I'm not concerned with box resonances but with possible change in on/off axis response after increasing the front baffle. That was really the question.
As far as looks, I agree the Summas/ESPs are rather unique in their 'I mean business' no nonsense approach. Unfortunately not everyone shares the same point of view, and even I, if I had chance to do so without affecting the sound, would prefer something a bit less 'in your face'.
But yes, sound quality comes in first. I would not really want to take any risks of getting the inferior results to what I already have as mains (ATC SCM100) simply to get more likeable speakers. But if I could make them WAF friendly, it would help a lot. 😉
gedlee said:
Apologies for misunderstanding. I didn't plan to place mains 'on top', I wanted to integrate them with subs into one speaker by extending the front baffle and then fitting the sub in the space underneath (front or side firing). It would be just one structure, and I can make it pretty strong and intert using standard techniques (bracing, constrained damping, 'box in the box' with sand filler etc.). The top section would keep exactly the same dimensions, the only difference is that bass/mid unit would not be as 'free space' as front baffle would become larger, possibly affecting its baffle step compensation network. I'm not concerned with box resonances but with possible change in on/off axis response after increasing the front baffle. That was really the question.
As far as looks, I agree the Summas/ESPs are rather unique in their 'I mean business' no nonsense approach. Unfortunately not everyone shares the same point of view, and even I, if I had chance to do so without affecting the sound, would prefer something a bit less 'in your face'.
But yes, sound quality comes in first. I would not really want to take any risks of getting the inferior results to what I already have as mains (ATC SCM100) simply to get more likeable speakers. But if I could make them WAF friendly, it would help a lot. 😉
final kit and price.
Earl
Sorry to get back on topic (very much tongue in cheek)
Have you decided on a final pricing and kit contents?
Still interested and have a backdated payrise due (lump sum!)
This is for the 10", is pricing still in singles or per pair?
Nick
Earl
Sorry to get back on topic (very much tongue in cheek)
Have you decided on a final pricing and kit contents?
Still interested and have a backdated payrise due (lump sum!)
This is for the 10", is pricing still in singles or per pair?
Nick
That wasnt there earlier..... 😀
Nick
QUESTION.
Whats the 10PS76? i cant find reference to it anywhere...
Nick
QUESTION.
Whats the 10PS76? i cant find reference to it anywhere...
I was just perusing Earl's resume. It reads like the who's who for one of the finest loudspeaker designers of the world. I really do hope this new venture of his provides him a satisfying lifestyle that is both profitable and stimulating in an academic sense.
Here it is: Earl Resume
Anand.
Here it is: Earl Resume
Anand.
Patrick Bateman said:
Listening to my music collection through the Summas, it's just SHOCKING how much better modern recordings are. I'm 36, and a lot of my favorite music is from the 90s. But listening to albums from the last five years or so is just a REVELATION. Through the Summas you can 'see' the depth in the soundstage, pinpoint instruments in space, and appreciate the delicacy of a well recorded upper treble. Who knew giant speakers could image?
nycavsr2000 said:
Patrick, don't know if you saw my last post. Can you list your equipment just out of interest?
Anand.
Wow. An orion owner likes summa more! That gets my attention!
For international customers like myself in Australia, shipping is a big issue. For us, the less bulk and weight the better. Also, many of us DIYers prefer to build things ourselves. So for many of us, having to buy physical parts that we can get locally (and cheaper), and already built enclosure parts is a downside.
What is of the greatest value to many of us is:
1. Crossover design done well - we lack the experience, equipment, time or the inclination to design this part
2. The waveguide design itself integrated with the crossover
Were I to buy this kit, I'd be most interested in a crossover schematic and a dimensioned drawing of the waveguide profile. The only physical part I'd want is the foam. I suspect everything else would cost more shipped. If the drivers were actually cheaper, then it would be different.
I'd like to hear from those who have heard the speaker how they think it compares to other large efficient speakers? I'm yet to hear any that I like. I love the dynamics of the cinema, but the sound is not as refined as what I normally listen to. I recently heard some old Altec speakers arranged WTTW and they seemed to lose a lot of detail.
What I like most so far is open baffle with typical hifi drivers, however, I'd happily switch to Summa if I give up nothing and only gain extra output. I'd probably want to make it open baffle as I like the deeper sound stage. I'd like to avoid the effect you seem to get from large HE speakers where the source appears to be magnified in size - everything seems bigger than it really is, yet the sound stage itself is smaller than with open baffle.
Troels Gravesen talks about this after listening to some Tannoy 15" monitor golds.
You will find it here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm
I don't say this to argue against the Summa, or to take this off topic. I say it to try to get clarification from those who have heard it.
I have listened to a number of HE speakers in the past hoping I'd like them, but have always been disappointed.
Regarding dispersion, I have in the past subscribed to the idea that higher directivity was desirable for accuracy, but based on experience so far I've found it was a bad thing for imaging as far as I could tell.
For international customers like myself in Australia, shipping is a big issue. For us, the less bulk and weight the better. Also, many of us DIYers prefer to build things ourselves. So for many of us, having to buy physical parts that we can get locally (and cheaper), and already built enclosure parts is a downside.
What is of the greatest value to many of us is:
1. Crossover design done well - we lack the experience, equipment, time or the inclination to design this part
2. The waveguide design itself integrated with the crossover
Were I to buy this kit, I'd be most interested in a crossover schematic and a dimensioned drawing of the waveguide profile. The only physical part I'd want is the foam. I suspect everything else would cost more shipped. If the drivers were actually cheaper, then it would be different.
I'd like to hear from those who have heard the speaker how they think it compares to other large efficient speakers? I'm yet to hear any that I like. I love the dynamics of the cinema, but the sound is not as refined as what I normally listen to. I recently heard some old Altec speakers arranged WTTW and they seemed to lose a lot of detail.
What I like most so far is open baffle with typical hifi drivers, however, I'd happily switch to Summa if I give up nothing and only gain extra output. I'd probably want to make it open baffle as I like the deeper sound stage. I'd like to avoid the effect you seem to get from large HE speakers where the source appears to be magnified in size - everything seems bigger than it really is, yet the sound stage itself is smaller than with open baffle.
Troels Gravesen talks about this after listening to some Tannoy 15" monitor golds.
You will find it here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm
I don't say this to argue against the Summa, or to take this off topic. I say it to try to get clarification from those who have heard it.
I have listened to a number of HE speakers in the past hoping I'd like them, but have always been disappointed.
Regarding dispersion, I have in the past subscribed to the idea that higher directivity was desirable for accuracy, but based on experience so far I've found it was a bad thing for imaging as far as I could tell.
Where is the carret for me if all I sell you is the foam? Not much profit in that. And how would you have the waveguide made for less than the shipping cost? I'd like to see that? A good mold will cost you $300-500 and then you better be pretty good with glass or casting plastic. Sorry to sound critical, but I think that you underestmate the difficulty of making a good waveguide.paulspencer said:
I probably can get you drivers cheaper in Australia than you can buy them. I would just have them sent to you by the local distributor.
If you change the design, ala, open baffle, then the crossover doesn't work anymore.
Unfortunately the 10PS26 is not one of the parts imported. Perhaps you could convince them to add it to a later shipment.gedlee said:
nycavsr2000 said:
It's nothing to write home about. The magic is definitely coming from the speakers. I pretty much gave up on audiophile amps and front-ends a few years ago, and put my tube amps and fancy DACs in storage a couple of years back. They just didn't sound much better than the gear I'd already been using, and they were much lower in power. If I can find the time this weekend I'll drag them out and see if they do anything to improve the sound.
gedlee said:
If it's cheaper to get the drivers from you, then of course that would be the way to go. Actually, when I think about it, it's really the box that I'd prefer to make myself.
Given a drawing of the waveguide profile, I can easily make it with a lathe. I have done it before, and it's not difficult up to a diameter of about 300mm. I just would need the profile. It's large and probably expensive to ship with a baffle, and my personal preference would be to integrate it into an open baffle design.
I have converted my existing speakers from a box speaker with a crossover which was designed for a narrow baffle. I get much better results that way. If the crossover works for a box speaker, I can compensate for dipole roll off with my EQ unit.
I currently use a pair of 6.5" drivers. I get complaints from the neighbours and the sub amps overheat before they run out of steam.
Believe it or not, I do understand how this might seem nonsense to you, and how you could easily see any change to your design as being a backward step in most cases. Having worked as an architect and web designer, I've sat on the other side of the fence there before.
I'm interested in this kit either for myself, or for a friend who does home theatre installations. Or both.
Paul,
Changing Earl's design is your preference if he is willing to sell the kit to you. But please do everybody a favor. DO NOT call it an Earl Gedde design. It would completely do a disservice to his work. At that point, it would become your design. I just don't think its fair to take somebody else's design, thrown it into an open baffle, say that the early dipole rolloff can be taken care with an EQ (which is true to an extent), use his waveguide, and then say that the original concept came from Earl Gedde. No, because for all I know, after performing all these modifications, it could sound completely dissatisfying compared to the original Summa 15.
I'm just an enthusiast, make a butt load money than Earl ever will, and will probably never get into the loudspeaker business. In other words, I have no affiliation with this guy except for really appreciating his work. But this makes my blood boil
Enough of my rant. Peace out.
Anand.
Well
For whatever reasons Summa was not succesful neither in US nor in Thailand. And it did have quite a bit of exposure on all internet hobby sites and in the press. I'd keep the blood cool ;0)
For whatever reasons Summa was not succesful neither in US nor in Thailand. And it did have quite a bit of exposure on all internet hobby sites and in the press. I'd keep the blood cool ;0)
nycavsr2000 said:I'm just an enthusiast, make a butt load money than Earl ever will, and will probably never get into the loudspeaker business. In other words, I have no affiliation with this guy except for really appreciating his work. But this makes my blood boil
Enough of my rant. Peace out.
Anand.
That's a good point about the money. With Earl's resume, he could easily give up on the hifi business and do something which pays 10x as much. You might say he's doing a service for the DIY community. He's certainly not in the hifi biz to get rich.
I've met a handful of guys who DID get rich off hifi, and every one of them had to make extraordinary compromises to their designs to make them marketable. In fact I can only name three or four "no-compromise" speakers out there. Many of the "no-compromise" speakers which you see in Stereophile are truly marketing gimmicks, intended to serve as a testament to the manufacturers prowess. In this respect they're a lot like Ford's GT40. A fine car, but certainly not indicative of the technology which you'll find in a Ford Taurs.
Earl,
Is the baffle MDF with no surface treatment? What thickness would be used?
In the $600ea kit does the foam insert need to be glued? I'm assuming it would not come attached since it would then be difficult to mask while painting.
In the $500 version, is the foam insert left out? Is a crossover schematic included?
Would it all be shipped from the US (excluding drivers via distributor)?
Out of curiosity, how much did the Summas sell for when they were available? Is there anyone in Melbourne that you know of who has any of your speakers by any chance?
Is the baffle MDF with no surface treatment? What thickness would be used?
In the $600ea kit does the foam insert need to be glued? I'm assuming it would not come attached since it would then be difficult to mask while painting.
In the $500 version, is the foam insert left out? Is a crossover schematic included?
Would it all be shipped from the US (excluding drivers via distributor)?
Out of curiosity, how much did the Summas sell for when they were available? Is there anyone in Melbourne that you know of who has any of your speakers by any chance?
limono said:
To me, this comment is misleading and mosty incorrect. The Summas were not necesarely a failure, they were simply moved to Thailand to be manufactured. Had they been a technical failure in the begining this would not have happened in the first place.
Then the Thailand operations failure (or perhaps just a delay) had nothing to do with the designs technical merits, the problems where strictly financial and I had nothing to do with that.
As far as exposure goes, how many people do you know that have heard them? They had almost NO exposure whatsoever, and what exposure they have had has been extremely positive.
Hence, I think that your implication that the Summas "failed" because they were not up to the challenge is entirely incorrect.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.