Just finished them this evening and had my first listen.
Wow. I can't claim to have heard all the other speakers touted as the best of DIY, but these are a level above everything "high end" I've ever heard. If I could toss out just one cliche audio adjective, these are some effortless speakers. Earl's claim that they can play at high levels with ease is spot on. I reached my limits before the Nathan's approached their's. I noticed a little bit of difference between sitting and standing when I went to go play with the DCX (handling subs), but moving horizontally along the couch within the boundaries of the speakers I hear very little change.
I'll start taking some measurements this weekend but right now I'm just indulging myself with some extended listening sessions.
Next up I need to work on some room treatments.
Thanks, Earl. I'm thrilled with them.
-Adam
Wow. I can't claim to have heard all the other speakers touted as the best of DIY, but these are a level above everything "high end" I've ever heard. If I could toss out just one cliche audio adjective, these are some effortless speakers. Earl's claim that they can play at high levels with ease is spot on. I reached my limits before the Nathan's approached their's. I noticed a little bit of difference between sitting and standing when I went to go play with the DCX (handling subs), but moving horizontally along the couch within the boundaries of the speakers I hear very little change.
I'll start taking some measurements this weekend but right now I'm just indulging myself with some extended listening sessions.
Next up I need to work on some room treatments.
Thanks, Earl. I'm thrilled with them.
-Adam
amiklos said:
One thing I really like about the Summas is that they sound better and better the more you listen to them, because you have to "train" yourself to what a waveguide sounds like.
With most conventional speakers I've owned I start noticing flaws after a few weeks. With the Summas, I actually started appreciating many things after months of listening.
Congratulations!
Adam
Thanks - enjoy.
Patrick
An almost universal experience. This is precisely the reason that I don't do shows. The Summa sound is a hard sell in a flashy, glitzy environment where things need to grab the listener instantly. No, doing shows is not going to happen, I figured that out a long time ago. Word of mouth will have to be the main form of advertising as thats the situation that I'm in.
So thanks to both of you for your "word of mouth" endorsments.
Thanks - enjoy.
Patrick
An almost universal experience. This is precisely the reason that I don't do shows. The Summa sound is a hard sell in a flashy, glitzy environment where things need to grab the listener instantly. No, doing shows is not going to happen, I figured that out a long time ago. Word of mouth will have to be the main form of advertising as thats the situation that I'm in.
So thanks to both of you for your "word of mouth" endorsments.
gedlee said:
I couldn't agree more. I work from home, and I listen to these things all day long. In my whole life, I've *never* been able to listen to a speaker without getting neurotic about the sound quality or perceived shortcomings.
I'm listening to the Summas right now, and was listening to them when I posted last night.
You really have to listen to them for a few weeks to fully appreciate them.
gedlee said:
Absolutely my pleasure.
Patrick Bateman said:
If that is the case then I am in for a real treat.
My experience is similar, in terms of nitpicking with other speakers. Last night I just sat back and grinned ear to ear. My wife kept laughing at me because she said I have rarely looked so delighted. I'm going through my catalog of songs and each one feels new.
I never thought I'd hear sound like this using a receiver and a computer as a source. Now I'm absolutely sure I have no regrets about selling off my McCormack gear to finance this little project.
Adam
As I have said many times before, the sound is all about the speakers. A decent receiver and CD player ($200 total in my case) very good speakers and decent multiple subs and you have a great system.
I should mention that I am very excited about my next design. I received the low end B&C speakers the other day and I'm going to do an 8" system arround them. I expect the kit costs to be very low, maybe 1/2 of the Nathans. I don't expect the same output level or dynamics form this system as the Nathans or Abbeys, but this speaker would be ideal for surrounds or a very low cost main system.
As I have said many times before, the sound is all about the speakers. A decent receiver and CD player ($200 total in my case) very good speakers and decent multiple subs and you have a great system.
I should mention that I am very excited about my next design. I received the low end B&C speakers the other day and I'm going to do an 8" system arround them. I expect the kit costs to be very low, maybe 1/2 of the Nathans. I don't expect the same output level or dynamics form this system as the Nathans or Abbeys, but this speaker would be ideal for surrounds or a very low cost main system.
Please understand that my recommendations for surrounds is based on weak arguments in the total lack of data. Hence they are based more on practicality than rationality. If I could make a really decent set of surrounds that were monopoles, then I would try them. I would certainly use them on the back wall if not on the sides. The recommendations for surrounds does seem to be changing and the mixing for them likewise. So I may change my position at some point. Will I personally use these new speakers as surrounds - on the sides - no, they are still too expensive and too big. Others may not have the highly constrained space that I have and may want to do something different. The surround situation is not fixed in stone.
The new smaller speakers will be simply scalled down from the same "mold" as the current ones. The design works and I'm going to stick with it.
The new smaller speakers will be simply scalled down from the same "mold" as the current ones. The design works and I'm going to stick with it.
Now we're talkin'
I guess the directivity control from the beaming woofer and waveguide is one of the major reasons why the design works, so as you lower the size and increase the crossover point, this is pushed higher in frequency, which is a negative.
On the other hand, a 8" may be able to have better transient response (less Le) than it's 10" or 12" counterparts, assuming similar 'scaled' driver design. Given that one has to use subs with even the 12"s anyway, a 8+waveguide "head" on someone's homebuilt bassbins could be quite the nice solution!
Looking forward to seeing this, with some of the lessons you've learned from the project re: quality.
I guess the directivity control from the beaming woofer and waveguide is one of the major reasons why the design works, so as you lower the size and increase the crossover point, this is pushed higher in frequency, which is a negative.
On the other hand, a 8" may be able to have better transient response (less Le) than it's 10" or 12" counterparts, assuming similar 'scaled' driver design. Given that one has to use subs with even the 12"s anyway, a 8+waveguide "head" on someone's homebuilt bassbins could be quite the nice solution!
Looking forward to seeing this, with some of the lessons you've learned from the project re: quality.
The bandpass designs are kind of a low priority as I just cannot seem to make a business case for them. But I will do this at some point, no doubt about that, and maybe sell the drivers, but there is not much else value added wise that I can do.
If a customer hounds me enough I usually give out the design. (Clearly you have to be a customer first!)
The 8" is going to try an 8" waveguide and I am hoping to be able to actually cast the whole baffle. Dreams! What may well happen is an 8" driver with the existing 10" waveguide, but the lower cost compression driver and woofer.
Understand that to get the price down there will have to be some lowering of performance. I am very sensitive to costs as I will not become someone who scalps the customer with outrageous prices. That practice has, IMO, been very harmful to the industry. But, there is a price to better performance and the slope is steep. I'd say that each 10-20% increment in performance doubles the cost. And this probably doesn't even hold at the higher performance levels. IMO, both ends of this scale are to be avoided.
If a customer hounds me enough I usually give out the design. (Clearly you have to be a customer first!)
The 8" is going to try an 8" waveguide and I am hoping to be able to actually cast the whole baffle. Dreams! What may well happen is an 8" driver with the existing 10" waveguide, but the lower cost compression driver and woofer.
Understand that to get the price down there will have to be some lowering of performance. I am very sensitive to costs as I will not become someone who scalps the customer with outrageous prices. That practice has, IMO, been very harmful to the industry. But, there is a price to better performance and the slope is steep. I'd say that each 10-20% increment in performance doubles the cost. And this probably doesn't even hold at the higher performance levels. IMO, both ends of this scale are to be avoided.
My guess is the DE10-8
I really like the sound of the DE10-8 It doesn't have such a metallic tone that Iv'e found in other compression drivers. Iv'e got a few speakers that use Mylar in the tweeters, it's becoming my preferred top end driver material.
The DE10:
http://pix.minirig.org.au/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=615&g2_serialNumber=2
col.
I really like the sound of the DE10-8 It doesn't have such a metallic tone that Iv'e found in other compression drivers. Iv'e got a few speakers that use Mylar in the tweeters, it's becoming my preferred top end driver material.
The DE10:
http://pix.minirig.org.au/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=615&g2_serialNumber=2
col.
Correct, the DE10.
Time frame - well I haven't been very good at guessing that thus far! Seems like everything takes longer than I expect. It would be late January of Feb. at the soonest before I had a design. If I have the box parts cut then typically this is another month. I think that April is probably the best bet for first shipment.
Time frame - well I haven't been very good at guessing that thus far! Seems like everything takes longer than I expect. It would be late January of Feb. at the soonest before I had a design. If I have the box parts cut then typically this is another month. I think that April is probably the best bet for first shipment.
kit questions
Earl,
I saw in a recent post of yours that you always use constrained layer damping in your enclosures, how would that be encorporated into the kit?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1673551#post1673551
Also, I thought I remembered reading something about the Summa's being setup with a curtain in front which attenuated the highs a little bit, but were eq'd to be flat with that in place. But I can't dig up that post now, so maybe that was incorrect. Would that also be true for the kits?
-Tony
Earl,
I saw in a recent post of yours that you always use constrained layer damping in your enclosures, how would that be encorporated into the kit?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1673551#post1673551
Also, I thought I remembered reading something about the Summa's being setup with a curtain in front which attenuated the highs a little bit, but were eq'd to be flat with that in place. But I can't dig up that post now, so maybe that was incorrect. Would that also be true for the kits?
-Tony
Re: kit questions
Hi Tony
The kits come with the CLD parts already put together. The front baffle has two pieces and they are CLD as the glue never gets hard. The back panel is done likewise and they are both delivered in the kits assembled this way. The baffle and the back panel are the two largest surfaces so CLD is the most effective on those parts.
The speakers are designed to be flat at about 22.5 degrees off axis. Most people will tell you that because there is so much more sound power at the high end because of the constant directivity - your used to hearing highs that beam and have very low sound power at these frequencies - that the speakers sound "bright". Putting them behind curtains tames down the HFs soemwhat, but then I personally drop the treble another dB with the treble control. As designed, you might find the Nathans and Abbeys to be a little on the bright side, but a lot will depend on the room absorption at the HFs.
In general most "house curves" have developed over the years to be a very gradual falloff towards the HFs and I have found this to also be the best subjectively. From about 100 Hz to 10 kHz it is typical in theaters and other setups to have about 3 dB loss. I don't do this in the design since it is a matter of preference and is room dependent, but in the setup in my room, which people find so appealing, it is just about this exact falloff rate, maybe a little greater.
TRADERXFAN said:
Hi Tony
The kits come with the CLD parts already put together. The front baffle has two pieces and they are CLD as the glue never gets hard. The back panel is done likewise and they are both delivered in the kits assembled this way. The baffle and the back panel are the two largest surfaces so CLD is the most effective on those parts.
The speakers are designed to be flat at about 22.5 degrees off axis. Most people will tell you that because there is so much more sound power at the high end because of the constant directivity - your used to hearing highs that beam and have very low sound power at these frequencies - that the speakers sound "bright". Putting them behind curtains tames down the HFs soemwhat, but then I personally drop the treble another dB with the treble control. As designed, you might find the Nathans and Abbeys to be a little on the bright side, but a lot will depend on the room absorption at the HFs.
In general most "house curves" have developed over the years to be a very gradual falloff towards the HFs and I have found this to also be the best subjectively. From about 100 Hz to 10 kHz it is typical in theaters and other setups to have about 3 dB loss. I don't do this in the design since it is a matter of preference and is room dependent, but in the setup in my room, which people find so appealing, it is just about this exact falloff rate, maybe a little greater.
So is there an option to have that rolloff on the crossover when you order the kit?
I tried to simulate a curtain in front of the nathan's using a very thin handtowel, but I found it to be a bit heavy handed in the attenuation. I am losing some detail as it must block some frequencies disproportionately, but it does soften the presentation some, and I think that's a good thing.
For those audio purists who don't have tone controls or the desire to use a curtain, I think this option is important.
-Tony
I tried to simulate a curtain in front of the nathan's using a very thin handtowel, but I found it to be a bit heavy handed in the attenuation. I am losing some detail as it must block some frequencies disproportionately, but it does soften the presentation some, and I think that's a good thing.
For those audio purists who don't have tone controls or the desire to use a curtain, I think this option is important.
-Tony
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