Boy, you Are digging deep into the past. *L* Yeah, remember the Bozaks 'n Empires...the Hartley's, no. But a 24" anything from back when would've needed power from the 'fire bottles' that only the well-heeled could've afforded. And probably were just as disappointed with them when they did....*G*
I've got an 18" EV in a box that I had reconed just for grins. Got it out of a trashed cabinet that probably came from someone's practice room. The rest of the drivers had been removed. "The Plan" is to use if for a sub when I get one of those roundtoits. In nice shape cosmetically....as are the Utah's that fell into my hands.
Tracking down some of that 'old tech' can be like searching the pyramids, looking for the chambers that haven't gotten trashed yet...it's there, just where...?
Hi, Jay! You've been conspicuous by your absence. 😉 Likely busy, and dealing with rain when not....I saw where it seemed y'all got a soaking. I wished you could hear them too, other than the YouTube installment. It really doesn't do them justice, even in their imperfect glory. *G*
I'd love to turn them up loud enough to do just that for y'all, but I've got this suspicion that if that were possible the DOD would show up wondering how a DIY'er could manage such a feat without them 'hearing' about it earlier. *G* That, and the local power company getting ticked for my taking the local grid into blackout so I could play something Really Annoying...like Nine Inch Nails "Head Like a Hole"....
If you're going to Go Big...Go Huge, and get atavistic, just because. *L*
I mean, classical is wonderful, but if you want to really twist some heads around ya gotta play something unexpected for your age group. 😉 And my taste IS all over the board....
"Dam' hippies...no sense of proportion..." *smirk*
I've got an 18" EV in a box that I had reconed just for grins. Got it out of a trashed cabinet that probably came from someone's practice room. The rest of the drivers had been removed. "The Plan" is to use if for a sub when I get one of those roundtoits. In nice shape cosmetically....as are the Utah's that fell into my hands.
Tracking down some of that 'old tech' can be like searching the pyramids, looking for the chambers that haven't gotten trashed yet...it's there, just where...?
Hi, Jay! You've been conspicuous by your absence. 😉 Likely busy, and dealing with rain when not....I saw where it seemed y'all got a soaking. I wished you could hear them too, other than the YouTube installment. It really doesn't do them justice, even in their imperfect glory. *G*
I'd love to turn them up loud enough to do just that for y'all, but I've got this suspicion that if that were possible the DOD would show up wondering how a DIY'er could manage such a feat without them 'hearing' about it earlier. *G* That, and the local power company getting ticked for my taking the local grid into blackout so I could play something Really Annoying...like Nine Inch Nails "Head Like a Hole"....
If you're going to Go Big...Go Huge, and get atavistic, just because. *L*
I mean, classical is wonderful, but if you want to really twist some heads around ya gotta play something unexpected for your age group. 😉 And my taste IS all over the board....
"Dam' hippies...no sense of proportion..." *smirk*
I remember those old things, too. I've really not been absent, but don't really have a lot to contribute to this discussion. Yeah, it's kind of damp around here, though our place is well above any possible flood; I mean, if we get flooded, Abernethy Creek (Yes, that IS how it's spelled) would be 300 feet above flood...
Finally figured out why my playback system was having drop-outs... My network was being "bursty", evey several seconds, it would take a break for sometimes 3 or 4 seconds. Yuk. Local laptop hard drives fixed that. Looking at an "orange pi" to replace the PC in the system now. should be quieter.
Finally figured out why my playback system was having drop-outs... My network was being "bursty", evey several seconds, it would take a break for sometimes 3 or 4 seconds. Yuk. Local laptop hard drives fixed that. Looking at an "orange pi" to replace the PC in the system now. should be quieter.
Older stuff- The most dynamically stunning rig I ever heard was a pair of 15" Klipsh corner horns topped with a pair of Ionovac super tweeters. The things had horrible timbre, unbearable coloration, but it would dry clean your pants with 10 watts. Horn dynamics have a certain appeal.
That 18" EV should feel like somebody dropped a 5 ton lead ball at your feet when
done right. If you are really adventurous, I'll send you the servo link again.
My fav way to end the party is to put on a Yoko Ono album. Try that on the DOD. You could **** everybody off with a Hendrix "Star Spangled Banner" at 0400 as well.
jpl- I don't know if we're contributing or BS ing, but feel free to jump in.
I'm lucky here in St Geo- my house is about 200' above the nearby creek level.
Funny thing about the SG Valley- the surrounding mountains manage to catch about 98% of the precipitation. We seldom get heavy rains here.
That 18" EV should feel like somebody dropped a 5 ton lead ball at your feet when
done right. If you are really adventurous, I'll send you the servo link again.
My fav way to end the party is to put on a Yoko Ono album. Try that on the DOD. You could **** everybody off with a Hendrix "Star Spangled Banner" at 0400 as well.
jpl- I don't know if we're contributing or BS ing, but feel free to jump in.
I'm lucky here in St Geo- my house is about 200' above the nearby creek level.
Funny thing about the SG Valley- the surrounding mountains manage to catch about 98% of the precipitation. We seldom get heavy rains here.
So if we were to attempt to image cone break-up where would we begin? JRigged suggested interferometry. Great call.
Any takers?
Any takers?
You can't always not get what you don't want...
Speaking of interference....*G*
"...it would dry clean your pants with 10 watts." *L* I love that imagery. I haven't been around any equipment that got me into that state that would require that sort of ability, but I hope I can create a pair that does. Brings to mind the Maxell ad of the guy in the chair getting his hair blown back....😉
It's be a hellova franchise...put 'em next to Starbucks....
Glo, I'd ship a pair of V.3's sans PVC bases (easy to duplicate, cheaper to ship without) to submit to interferometry. I'd love to get some hard data on what's going on with 'em. I wonder if Dale @ HHR with his lasers has done that sort of thing with his progeny. If his shoes were mine, I'd do it in a N.Y. minute...
A 5 ton lead ball, huh? *L* Kewl...send the link. That'd be a great genesis for that EV...one can never have enough bass on tap. Keeps the bowels moving if nothing else. *LOL*
Loco Yoko...yeah, she could etch glass if played loud enough. That does have a certain bent appeal. But the SSB might get the rabble roused righteously 'round here, so I'll save that for the appropo time....11/'16, Election Day, a "get the vote out" move... I tire of those that don't vote but complain. Be a Citizen. And that's enough on that subject....
Network stutters, *eww* Fortunately, it only happens to me when I've got too many graphics files open at once. The audio stays pretty well behaved for now...likely due to dumb luck instead of intelligent design. *G*
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the sharpest stick in the forest. More likely a blunt instrument applied to side of one's own skull on a too regular basis to be tolerated by others for too long. Feel free to jerk my leash if y'all think it'd be appropo... 😉
Asheville has had some major floods in the past...we've seen only one that got slightly hairy in the decade we've been here. We're close to the French Broad River here, but we're about 80ish ft. above mean level and there's lots of flood plain 'twixt us 'n it. Last major one took two back to back hurricanes to wreak major havoc here. We saw more of that back in Houston, where you could drop a 2x4 on the ground and back up water for a 1/4 mile. Place is as flat as a pool table...
Speaking of interference....*G*
"...it would dry clean your pants with 10 watts." *L* I love that imagery. I haven't been around any equipment that got me into that state that would require that sort of ability, but I hope I can create a pair that does. Brings to mind the Maxell ad of the guy in the chair getting his hair blown back....😉
It's be a hellova franchise...put 'em next to Starbucks....
Glo, I'd ship a pair of V.3's sans PVC bases (easy to duplicate, cheaper to ship without) to submit to interferometry. I'd love to get some hard data on what's going on with 'em. I wonder if Dale @ HHR with his lasers has done that sort of thing with his progeny. If his shoes were mine, I'd do it in a N.Y. minute...
A 5 ton lead ball, huh? *L* Kewl...send the link. That'd be a great genesis for that EV...one can never have enough bass on tap. Keeps the bowels moving if nothing else. *LOL*
Loco Yoko...yeah, she could etch glass if played loud enough. That does have a certain bent appeal. But the SSB might get the rabble roused righteously 'round here, so I'll save that for the appropo time....11/'16, Election Day, a "get the vote out" move... I tire of those that don't vote but complain. Be a Citizen. And that's enough on that subject....
Network stutters, *eww* Fortunately, it only happens to me when I've got too many graphics files open at once. The audio stays pretty well behaved for now...likely due to dumb luck instead of intelligent design. *G*
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the sharpest stick in the forest. More likely a blunt instrument applied to side of one's own skull on a too regular basis to be tolerated by others for too long. Feel free to jerk my leash if y'all think it'd be appropo... 😉
Asheville has had some major floods in the past...we've seen only one that got slightly hairy in the decade we've been here. We're close to the French Broad River here, but we're about 80ish ft. above mean level and there's lots of flood plain 'twixt us 'n it. Last major one took two back to back hurricanes to wreak major havoc here. We saw more of that back in Houston, where you could drop a 2x4 on the ground and back up water for a 1/4 mile. Place is as flat as a pool table...
Servo link: http://www.servospeaker.com/pdf/ProtoDesc.pdf I found this one very interesting because of the feedback scheme- a variable capacitor as opposed to a tickler coil.
Subs like the RythmiK don't qualify as true servos in my book since the correction signal is derived from the back EMF of the voice coil. I think highly dampened is a more apt description.
A true servo has a separate sensor for position, like the Velodyne, which uses an accelerometer.
We see the difference in laser scanners- quite a few use current feedback from the drive coil with a damping adjustment to sort of smooth out the overshoot and undershoot. The good (expensive) ones use a variable capacitor to control the frequency of an oscillator based on the position of the rotor (or in our case, the cone). This signal is then demodulated to provide a DC voltage that accurately represents the position of the rotor. Something like FM radio. This methodology is stable and accurate to DC.
I have heard of but never seen optical schemes where the output of an led is directed to a phototransistor and the flux is varied by the load position. Seems viable- they've done it with phono cartridges.
Coils and to some extent accelerometers are only accurate when they are in motion- not at rest. This can be demonstrated by putting a sensitive analog (FET) voltmeter across the voice coil of a speaker. You will only see voltage when the cone is moving- push it in a little and hold it, and the voltage will disappear.
Now I am going to put on my Nomex coveralls and wait for the flames.
I would be very surprised if Harder hasn't tried interferometry. You would need a very stable single frequency (etalon) laser with a long coherence length and some pricey lenses to get a clear image. Diodes (at least ones you can afford) wouldn't do it.
I'll drop Dale a line and ask him if he's done it. Maybe he'll share.
Subs like the RythmiK don't qualify as true servos in my book since the correction signal is derived from the back EMF of the voice coil. I think highly dampened is a more apt description.
A true servo has a separate sensor for position, like the Velodyne, which uses an accelerometer.
We see the difference in laser scanners- quite a few use current feedback from the drive coil with a damping adjustment to sort of smooth out the overshoot and undershoot. The good (expensive) ones use a variable capacitor to control the frequency of an oscillator based on the position of the rotor (or in our case, the cone). This signal is then demodulated to provide a DC voltage that accurately represents the position of the rotor. Something like FM radio. This methodology is stable and accurate to DC.
I have heard of but never seen optical schemes where the output of an led is directed to a phototransistor and the flux is varied by the load position. Seems viable- they've done it with phono cartridges.
Coils and to some extent accelerometers are only accurate when they are in motion- not at rest. This can be demonstrated by putting a sensitive analog (FET) voltmeter across the voice coil of a speaker. You will only see voltage when the cone is moving- push it in a little and hold it, and the voltage will disappear.
Now I am going to put on my Nomex coveralls and wait for the flames.
I would be very surprised if Harder hasn't tried interferometry. You would need a very stable single frequency (etalon) laser with a long coherence length and some pricey lenses to get a clear image. Diodes (at least ones you can afford) wouldn't do it.
I'll drop Dale a line and ask him if he's done it. Maybe he'll share.
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Natty suit of Nomex, there... 😉 I'll stand by with the extinguisher. Never call tell how hot those flamers can get, although one does wonder why They don't burst into flame instead...*shrug*G*
Well, if it's as pricey as you suggest it might be something he'd pass on. It is edging into the really esoteric quantification territories after all. That, and the price of admission could be higher than one might consider worthwhile vs. decent mics and the standard issue measurement programs and routines. It'd certainly seem worth doing, considering the nature of the beast....especially with the 'full boat' cone construction.
But I might be edging into 'devil's advocate' territory..."Ya' know, you should do this..."
(Shut up, J...and quit advocating spending someone else's time and money...*L*)
I think I'll just mosey off for awhile and stare at feedback schemes other than mine. 😉
Well, if it's as pricey as you suggest it might be something he'd pass on. It is edging into the really esoteric quantification territories after all. That, and the price of admission could be higher than one might consider worthwhile vs. decent mics and the standard issue measurement programs and routines. It'd certainly seem worth doing, considering the nature of the beast....especially with the 'full boat' cone construction.
But I might be edging into 'devil's advocate' territory..."Ya' know, you should do this..."
(Shut up, J...and quit advocating spending someone else's time and money...*L*)
I think I'll just mosey off for awhile and stare at feedback schemes other than mine. 😉
I PM'd Harder about this. If anyone has the capability, he does. I also know a guy in Riverside who has a research grade Lexel laser. Don't write this off-
*G* I won't write it off, but I won't hold my breath either. But my attention is engaged, it'd be worth pursuing if it can be accomplished without consuming cash and time that we'd rather spend elsewhere....since Xmas IS on the doorstep, after all...
...been looking at the 'white paper' @ that servo link. It might be possible to DIY it onto an existing woofer...but the notation that the sensing capacitor needs 1Kv kinda brought me up short. That's electrostatic screen charge levels...
Don't get wrong, I do appreciate M-L's and other 'stats I've heard, but I think I'll leave that tech to the commercial concerns. I like my fingers unsinged and free of burn ointments...*L* I used to be around neon components (5Kv up to 30Kv) and they can bite Hard. You won't kill yourself as a general rule, but it Does get your attention...
If I wanted to go there, I'd like to play with a plasma speaker. 'Singing arcs' for a tweet has an appeal, but it'd be better to leave the ozone layer intact after all. We don't really need to start bathing in SPF100....😉
Don't get wrong, I do appreciate M-L's and other 'stats I've heard, but I think I'll leave that tech to the commercial concerns. I like my fingers unsinged and free of burn ointments...*L* I used to be around neon components (5Kv up to 30Kv) and they can bite Hard. You won't kill yourself as a general rule, but it Does get your attention...
If I wanted to go there, I'd like to play with a plasma speaker. 'Singing arcs' for a tweet has an appeal, but it'd be better to leave the ozone layer intact after all. We don't really need to start bathing in SPF100....😉
I wish someone was still making Linear Array Transducer woofers, as was made by Tymphany. Now that could be an interesting jaunt for DIY...
Yeah, the HV is a little off putting. I did neon for about 10 yrs as well. You learn to keep one hand in your pocket.
Ahh, the plasmas- The Hill with it's helium tank and it's eye-burning ozone output. The one I never could get info on was the "corona wind" speaker talked about in the '70's.
I have a pair of M-L's and love them, but my big concern is my cats. I had covers made to put over the stators so the buggers won't climb them. Don't need to worry when I'm playing them as the cats disappear.
The servo article could serve as a starting point. Methinks with a little tighter gap, that capacitor could modulate an RF oscillator that can be demodulated similar to the laser scanners I use. They only have 12 volts DC powering the oscillator, which is comprised of a couple of small signal transistors. The demod is a diffamp with a couple of caps and inductors. Simple, really. Might be worth looking at the patents.
This stuff is way above my pay grade, but I'm sure some bushy-tailed pup out there would be up for the challenge.
Ahh, the plasmas- The Hill with it's helium tank and it's eye-burning ozone output. The one I never could get info on was the "corona wind" speaker talked about in the '70's.
I have a pair of M-L's and love them, but my big concern is my cats. I had covers made to put over the stators so the buggers won't climb them. Don't need to worry when I'm playing them as the cats disappear.
The servo article could serve as a starting point. Methinks with a little tighter gap, that capacitor could modulate an RF oscillator that can be demodulated similar to the laser scanners I use. They only have 12 volts DC powering the oscillator, which is comprised of a couple of small signal transistors. The demod is a diffamp with a couple of caps and inductors. Simple, really. Might be worth looking at the patents.
This stuff is way above my pay grade, but I'm sure some bushy-tailed pup out there would be up for the challenge.
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Here's the original General Scanning patent embodying capacitive feedback.
Patent US4142144 - Position detector - Google Patents
I made some incorrect assumptions about how it works- sorry.
Patent US4142144 - Position detector - Google Patents
I made some incorrect assumptions about how it works- sorry.
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Oh, hey...don't be sorry about having to backtrack. It's better to follow up and clear out any misconceptions. Just improves your 'rep' in the long run. *G*
Although you lost me with the theory (I'm not well-versed in the realms of circuitry), it seems to me that there ought to be a means of doing the same process without the high voltage. Very subtle things can be accomplished now that used to require more 'brute force' to do... Although this is just an observation on my part, a humbling one at that.
I can see and appreciate the talent, skill, and knowledge in these things. Duplicate it? Build upon it? Create my own version?
Hardly...I'm a technician, basically, in the physical realm. I can do some simple tricks, but that's where the chasm begins, highlighting my lack of knowledge of the subtler details.
I can grasp the concepts, but interpretation and formulating an answer or an application is beyond your truly. I literally do have to stand on the shoulders of giants and pray I don't get brushed off like dandruff.
Anyhow...aside from this confession, I just saw something on the tube that was almost startling. A 'straight up' TV commercial from JBL (by Harmon) touting their Bluetoothed portable speakers. Up to now, any audio company has been referred to in auto commercials...Bose and Infinity come to mind. Up to now, audio has been part of smartphone or tablet/phablet ads. 'Course, I don't watch the tube constantly so there might be something else 'out there', but...damn. *L*
It'll be interesting to see if anything else of the like makes an 'appearance' leading up to the holiday...
Although you lost me with the theory (I'm not well-versed in the realms of circuitry), it seems to me that there ought to be a means of doing the same process without the high voltage. Very subtle things can be accomplished now that used to require more 'brute force' to do... Although this is just an observation on my part, a humbling one at that.
I can see and appreciate the talent, skill, and knowledge in these things. Duplicate it? Build upon it? Create my own version?
Hardly...I'm a technician, basically, in the physical realm. I can do some simple tricks, but that's where the chasm begins, highlighting my lack of knowledge of the subtler details.
I can grasp the concepts, but interpretation and formulating an answer or an application is beyond your truly. I literally do have to stand on the shoulders of giants and pray I don't get brushed off like dandruff.
Anyhow...aside from this confession, I just saw something on the tube that was almost startling. A 'straight up' TV commercial from JBL (by Harmon) touting their Bluetoothed portable speakers. Up to now, any audio company has been referred to in auto commercials...Bose and Infinity come to mind. Up to now, audio has been part of smartphone or tablet/phablet ads. 'Course, I don't watch the tube constantly so there might be something else 'out there', but...damn. *L*
It'll be interesting to see if anything else of the like makes an 'appearance' leading up to the holiday...
Looked over the Position Detector patent...certainly looks applicable to a speaker app, and pays attention to the drawbacks of previous hv apps and addresses them....
Understanding is one thing...being able to respond to that knowledge requires knowledge I don't possess. I conceptually understand the function of most components, resistors, capacitors, diodes, transistors, and even some of the more basic 'chips'.
Making them work in concert in something original....not a clue.
I can follow directions and occasionally 'breadcrumbs' reasonably well. *L*
Understanding is one thing...being able to respond to that knowledge requires knowledge I don't possess. I conceptually understand the function of most components, resistors, capacitors, diodes, transistors, and even some of the more basic 'chips'.
Making them work in concert in something original....not a clue.
I can follow directions and occasionally 'breadcrumbs' reasonably well. *L*
Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Cheers, (but not too much on NYE)
Jay
Cheers, (but not too much on NYE)
Jay
Back atcha', Glo. *S* As for NYE, cabs are the way to go & get back when you want to get down. All you have to remember is where home is. And, if that fails, there's always the no-tell motel. *L*